Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Burning Grease

[turbo torque]

Has anyone tried running on filtered used cooking oil? Check out this site www.greasel.com They use a heated filter, start up on diesel then switch to grease when warm, then back to diesel before shutdown Seems like a great idea (free fuel) Just wondering if anyone has tried this. Thanks, Bill.

 

[Ncostello]

There was a truck for sale on Ebay once with this... a D-250. I've seen the topic around here too.



But be advised with the new law just past... you cannot hold McDonalds responsible if your truck develops high cholesterol or gains alot of weight.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Running Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) in a direct injected engine is not the greatest idea. They lack the high swirl an IDI motor has and run a higher risk of gumming the rings and injectors. Also, the 24V Pumps have enough troubles injecting regular Diesel fuel without breaking. Running fuel with a higher viscosity is asking for trouble.

Now, I know there are people doing it, including some people that are members here, running 50/50 SVO and Diesel fuel... but I don't recommend it.

That's my 2 cents.



Joe

 

[turbo torque]

Joe, Thanks for your input. Im just trying to tap into something new here,I had'nt given any thought to the viscosity & high swirl. I've herd the added lube in WVO is good for our vp44,as long as it's clean. Thanks again for any input.

 

[PPillard]

Grease is great!

Originally posted by JoeBioDiesel

Running Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) in a direct injected engine is not the greatest idea. They lack the high swirl an IDI motor has and run a higher risk of gumming the rings and injectors.

I have to disaggree here. I run veggie straight in my 24v Cummins. Direct injection engines are actually a better design for running grease than IDI. As a matter of fact, the submersed volcano design of a direct injection piston is strictly for the afore-mentioned swirl.



I've converted scores of DI engines to burn veggie (12v Cummins, Powersmokes, VW, pretty much the works), and I've had the heads off of both IDI and DI veggie-burning engines. Never have I seen, nor know anybody who has seen, any gumming of rings or injectors. As far as I can tell, that seems to be some urban legand that's floating around the biodiesel crowd.



My partner and I have even converted a '99 Mack truck. DI, heavy computers, and heavily driven. The owner now has a hundred thousand miles on it, no ill effects. He did have his cam die on him, and while replacing it, his mechanic got to give the injectors, head, and cylinders a good inspection. All was pristine. No gumming to be seen.

Also, the 24V Pumps have enough troubles injecting regular Diesel fuel without breaking. Running fuel with a higher viscosity is asking for trouble.

This is true enough. I've been working hard to find just the right pump to handle the heavier viscosity of the veggie. I'm on my fifth, and this baby seems to be doin' really good. I had to regulate it down to 17 psi. All seems good so far, but I want to test it for another couple of weeks before I release too many details about it. I've gotten excited about other veggie-pump candidates before.



The VP44 seems to love the veggie, as it's a far better lubricant. Also, veggie can't vaporize like petro-based fuels, so you eliminate the risk of cavitation. I've run about 7000 miles now on veggie, and the only code that it has thrown has to do with my stock fuel pump being out of the loop (I've completely disconnected it in favor of my aftermarket pump). This code does not trigger the 'check engine' light.



Granted, I'm a biased person to ask about the whole thing, as I'm co-owner of Greasel.com. However, it's my job to research and develop veggie-burning fuel systems for all vehicles, and we won't release a Cummins kit without a quality stamp of approval.



The Cummins conversion kit has been the most challenging one to date, but all the others have been a walk in the park!

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Hi Pillard, and thanks for your input. Glad to have a reply from someone with so much field experience running SVO. I have run my VW TD on SVO, and just finished up my aluminum tank for a permanent conversion. I have not tried to run it in my 12V, but run Biodiesel in it all the time.

Among the Biodiesel crowd I have seen the effects of Urban Legend and certainly don't want to propogate any rumors on SVO. Having said that... I will defend my post a bit.



Admittedly the Cummins combustion chamber is designed for high swirl, but it doesn't approach the turbulence levels seen in an IDI motor. That turbulence is key to dispersing fuel droplets. Since SVO has a higher viscosity than Diesel Fuel that turbulence will help spread the fuel charge better. The higher viscosity of the fuel charge will make the injected fuel penetrate further into the combustion chamber before ingniting, approaching or reaching the piston top and making it run hotter.



I have had troubles with SVO in two areas. I broke a delivery valve on a VP pump and I've witnessed varnished injector tips in the same engine. The tips had evidence of high heat, possibly indicitave of poor nozzle chatter (maybe slow closing rates due to higher fuel viscosity) or maybe leaking injectors at operating temps (they didn't leak when bench tested with a Nozzle Rater).

The fuel on this engine was heated to 150F-160F, below the temps you recommend. I haven't had any problems once I changed heaters and started heating the fuel to 180F.





However... in your defense, you've seen much more of this stuff first hand. Experience wins over theory in my book... . however I'm still not brave enough to try it on my Cummins. If I smoke my VW motor I can find another one for $500. 00. The Cummins will cost 10X that. My pockets aren't deep enough I guess.





Joe

 

[PPillard]

Originally posted by JoeBioDiesel

My pockets aren't deep enough I guess.

Yeah, mine neither. I've some serious faith in the lubricating forces of veggie, tho. This is my third veggie-burner that I've owned. My first one was a $200 diesel chevette . Talk about minimal risk. She's still goin' strong. I use her as a sprint car (I use that term loosely). I jaunt across the country in her to pick up new rigs to convert and sell, then I tow it back via the tow-bar that's on it.



Again, minimal financial risk!

 

[jcarey]

Here's another site of greasy interest and good reading...



http://www.greasecar.com/

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Pillard,

Out of curiosity, do you know of anyone that's converted a vehicle with Common Rail Injection? Just wondering...





Joe

 

[PPillard]

Sorry for the delay, we've been swamped here lately and this is the first time I've been able to sit down in front of the computer.



Common Rail Injection conversion? Well, we personally haven't gotten to convert a *true* common rail. Other than the new Dodge, I believe there are no true common rails released in the states. The closest to one is the Powerstroke's unit injector system (which convert like a dream btw), but it's still a different animal. We do have an '03 Cummins scheduled for next month. We'll slap a fuel pressure guage on it and do some testing before anything serious gets modified.



The only thing I question about the Common Rail Cummins' is if they put the same crappy lift pump on them as they did our 24v's? I'm also curious as to what will happen if you restrict flow to the high-pressure pump (when a veggie filter plugs up)? Will it puke like our VP-44's are prone to do?



I'm gonna do some diggin' on the 3rd gen section about pressure's for both pumps, problematic failures and the like.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

I'm curious as to why you would not consider the Duramax a "true" common rail... although it may be a complicated conversion. The Duramax runs fuel through the Fuel Injection Control Module (FICM) in order to cool it. They even put a heat exchanger back by the tank in order to lower fuel temp as it returns to the tank. I think the FICM might not enjoy the high temps associated with an SVO conversion.



I'm not sure if the lift pump on the 3 Gen is the same as on the 24V, but it does have one. Starving the gear pump, while probably not good, would not likely cause the near-immediate failure the VP pumps suffer from. It is only a gear pump coupled with a radial piston pump. The gear pump creates pressures from 80-180 psi, and the radial pump makes the 4,350-23,310 psi supplied to the fuel rail.



Joe

 

[monkfarm]

Price of Wildcat diesel??

I applaud your efforts. I love it!!

Biodiesel is great. I have a friend with an old 300D that just runs heated veggie oil (runs the fuel line thru one of the coolant hoses) and it runs great! Drove it out to California from Minnesota and back again.

Incidently how much is that Wildcat atv with the diesel??

 

[KOdegaard]

Where can one get the fuel?? Is it avail cross country?

Is it less$$?

I was reading about equipment to that allows you to use

used cooking, thing I see as the trouble here is a stedy

supply of used oil. The claim was $. 70 a gal????

Too good to be true????

Need less to say I have ALOT od questions on this subject.

Kirk

 

[PPillard]

Joe- you're right, and I completely spaced on the Duramax. Hey, I posted after a hard day! We have yet to have a Duramax on the shop floor. We've had many nibbles, but no bites. It's rather frustrating, really. We've looked under the hood of them and see nothing to really alarm us. Should be simple enough. All our research indicates that the Duramax is chewing through injectors a little faster than it should due to the abrasive diesel. This tells us that veggie *should* greatly prolong injector life...



Thanks for the good info about the 3rd Gen Cummin's. We just got a report from our local Cummin's expert claiming they are seeing similer issues with a weak lift pump. Guess we'll be replacing them as well.



Monk - I pm'd you your price, for two reason's: One, I try to minimize my salesman effort on such board's (I don't want you guys to feel that every time I post I'm trying to shove a product down your throat), and two, I don't want anyone not prepared for the price to start hemoraging .



KOdegaard - SVO is free, it is available cross-country, and your truck can be set up with a Nomad tank for serious long hauls. For more details, check out our website at www.greasel.com. There, that's the closest I'm gonna get to pitching sales. Hopefully, it wasn't too pushy .

 

[PPillard]

Originally posted by JoeBioDiesel

The Duramax runs fuel through the Fuel Injection Control Module (FICM) in order to cool it. They even put a heat exchanger back by the tank in order to lower fuel temp as it returns to the tank. I think the FICM might not enjoy the high temps associated with an SVO conversion.

I'm curious as to what temp the FICM prefers the fuel to be? If it's buried in the engine, it's gonna be piping hot as it is, regardless of cooling efforts, and our system does not exceed normal op temps. How similer is the FICM to the HFCM (Horizontal Fuel Conditioning Module), found on the 6. 0L Powerstroke. The HFCM pumps, filters, pumps return fuel, heats the fuel, and monitors the overall fuel process...

 

[turbo torque]

PPillard- I've read about the pro's & cons of DI, high swirl,deep dish pistons, etc. From what I gather the key is to have the wvo at 180F - 190F (correct me if I'm wrong) I run a 98. 5 24V that I'm itching to convert to WVO. (My original vp-44 is gone, hope replacement is stronger) If I understand right your running a 24V on wvo with no side effects,other than some pusher pump problems. Are there any other issues with the 24V Cummins & WVO? If not I'm ready. Give me a PM when you have time. Thanks, Bill.

 

[PPillard]

Originally posted by turbo torque

PPillard- I've read about the pro's & cons of DI, high swirl,deep dish pistons, etc. From what I gather the key is to have the wvo at 180F - 190F (correct me if I'm wrong)

That's exactly right. Heat is the key. We use waste heat from the engine's coolant system to pre-heat and thus lower the viscosity of the veggie fuel system that we install. Cold-starting on WVO can cause coking of the injectors and other such problems, which is why we cold-start on diesel (or biodiesel), bring the engine up to normal op temps, then switch over to veggie.

I run a 98. 5 24V that I'm itching to convert to WVO. (My original vp-44 is gone, hope replacement is stronger) If I understand right your running a 24V on wvo with no side effects,other than some pusher pump problems. Are there any other issues with the 24V Cummins & WVO? If not I'm ready.

My 24v seems to be doin' great now. I've gone almost a thousand miles with no problems. Initially, I had two problems: the pusher pump (like you mentioned), and the size of the veggie filter. Of course, I have a fuel pressure gauge on a pillar mount to costantly monitor readings.



The pusher pump was the most problematic to solve, as we tested a buttload of them to find the right one. The one we have now, which seems to be bullet-proof and is performing beautifully, was a rather pricey option, but seems to be worth the dough. It's able to maintain 17 psi regardless of what type of fuel it's pumping, or where your foot is positioned on the throttle. It doesn't matter if I'm idling or flooring it up a steep hill, the fuel pressure doesn't deviate more than a half a psi. I can regulate it to whatever psi I want, as well. It's really a sweet pump. Once I put a few thousand more miles on it, we'll release a Cummins kit with this pump in it. Won't be cheap tho.



Also, the Cummins needs a big filter to supply the flow the pump needs to maintain a safe psi. Once we nipped those two things in the bud, the cummins and veggie started playing very well with each other, with no further need to discipline either. We were very proud parents .