Buying 4500 and have questions

[Wiredawg]

Howdy all,



I'm actually moving my post from 4th Gen "25,400 GCVWR; Tu-tone paint; 19. 5 tires" since I shifted gears talking about a 2010 3500 dually p/u to purchasing a 2009 4500 C&C QC 4X4 SLT.



It would be too hard to show, discuss everything from that post other than I have another week to wait before going final because while my loan is being processed to renovate/expand my house and build a shop. After it's approved next week, I can pull the trigger.



Harvey and all,



Hope you made the jump. I measured the the pin on my fifth wheel and it is 49" from the ground and 16" off the bed of my '02 3500 and pin weight is about 3,500 lbs . The pin is adjusted all the way up on the 5er. Question, what height of bed do I need to make this work? Do I need the hitch recessed beween the frame of the truck so I have adjustment options. This 17K 5er must ride level. I've seen some RV tow bodies that have the depression. I prefer to have a low profile utlity bed. I appreciate any comments, suggestions. Links to products even more appreciated.



Thanks,



Wiredawg

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .
Question, what height of bed do I need to make this work? Do I need the hitch recessed beween the frame of the truck so I have adjustment options. This 17K 5er must ride level. I've seen some RV tow bodies that have the depression. I prefer to have a low profile utlity bed. I appreciate any comments, suggestions. Links to products even more appreciated. Thanks,Wiredawg

As I wrote in reply to your other post, you can determine the unloaded delivered height of the frame rails of a 4500 C&C either by measuring one on a dealer's lot or by going to the Dodge Commercial website. You can expect about 33" to 34" from pavement to top of frame rail. This dimension is fixed and unchangeable. A 4500 will squat slightly when heavily loaded but not much. Maybe only 2" or 3". My 3500 squats maybe 4", far less than a 3500 dually pickup does with the same weight.

You will not be able to use a "utility bed" if by utility bed you mean a contractor's bed with tall sides containing storage compartments. You would be towing with the nose of your TS with a severe nose-up attitude and/or you would have inadequate clearance over the boxes to clear the trailer's front overhang. The problem is the floor height of every aftermarket bed I've ever seen is much higher than that of a pickup.

The reason is that all aftermarket beds are of similar construction: 4" longitudinal frame rails that sit atop the truck's frame rails, 3" side to side rails that rest atop the 4" rails and provide the floor support for the flat deck, 1/8" steel plate bed deck for a total of 7 1/8" of thickness for JUST a flatbed or flatdeck tow bed.

Simple arithmetic will tell you that if you start with 34" tall frame rails (Ram 4500), add 7 1/8" of basic flatbed aftermarket bed on top of that you have the bed deck at 41 1/8" off the pavement. That only leaves room for about 10" of fifth wheel vertical height under your TS kingpin AFTER the springs compress under full load. Or, back to the original thought, there would be inadequate clearance for the storage compartments above the flatbed deck. I've never seen anyone tow a fifth wheel travel trailer with a truck with a mounted utility bed.

You've seen tow beds and flatbeds with a recessed channel in the center of the bed. That is to accomodate the gooseneck of a gooseneck trailer. The gooseneck ball sits down in a small recessed fabricated box just below the bed deck. The "groove" allows backing to the gooseneck without handcranking the heavy trailer an additional 6" or so up to clear then cranking it back down over the ball coupler.

You could order a specially constructed towbed/flatbed with a recessed platform to set a fifth wheel hitch down inside but by doing so you will create an ugly and impractical bed deck with a large recess in it.

I worked through all these issues before I ordered my 3500 C&C. I considered several ideas and products and ultimately decided the easiest, cheapest solution was to use basic CM flatbed with two long storage boxed mounted under the bed in front of the rear wheels and two shorter boxes under the bed behind the rear wheels. Another more expensive but nicer looking alternative would be to step up to the "full-skirted" CM bed which is a basic flatbed deck with four built-in storage boxes with a full wrap around skirt down both sides and the rear of the bed. To mate the height of the installed bed deck with the kingpin of my HH 5er I had the bottom frame of my standard Reese fifth wheel hitch cut down by about 4" to make the total height from bottom to top of fifth wheel about 10".

See the CM bed website and the Reese 30K fifth wheel hitch on their respective websites. When you compare the standard Reese 20k hitch designed for use in a pickup bed with the dimensions of the Reese 30k hitch intended for cab and chassis/medium duty trucks you will see that the 30k hitch is several inches shorter because of the bed height you'll be working with.

I've seen several hotshotters or RV transporters who tow fifth wheel travel trailers and were seeking practical rather than attractive looks solve this dimension challenge by not using an aftermarket bed at all. They simply bolt a 1/2 steel plate on top of the frame rails and then bolt a standard pickup truck fifth wheel hitch on top of the steel plate. This eliminates the issue of the 7" height of the floor of an aftermarket bed.

 

[HBarlow]

|| REESE PRODUCTS || Reese 20K These two Reese links won't transfer properly.

|| REESE PRODUCTS || Reese 30k

SS Truck Beds Basic flatbed. I have this one with below bed boxes installed.

SK Truck Beds Full skirted bed. More $$, nicer appearnance.

ER Truck Beds Fancy. Much more money, good looking bed.

TM Truck Beds NOT recommended because of the height of the storage boxes. They'll interfere with your fifth wheel TT overhang.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvy,



I'm looking at the RV tow body by C&M now... looks like better clearances. I think I will contact them about the bed I posted to see what clearances are w/ my application. Local dealer here in SA quoted $6,700 for that one I posted. As for the utility body, I'm referring to one I found once that is like what I posted, but didn't have the rise in the front. I have a headache from looking at tow bodies.



I'm gonna go out Friday at lunch and measure a 4500 Sterling Bullit to get height info. I'll post back later.



Thanks Wiredawg

 

[HBarlow]

Wiredawg,

Here's the dimensions of rear frame to ground measurement in the Dodge Body Builder's Guide: http://www.dodge.com/bodybuilder/2009/dm/dm45/dm45tad.pdf Back out of this page slowly and notice where it is in the Dodge website so you can access it again. The site contains considerable excellent information. It is a little hard to find unless you know what you're looking for and go their frequently. I had to struggle to find it again.

When I bought my Ram a year ago I had a copy of the dealer's invoice price list for all CM beds and accessories. My favorite dealer and salesman gave it to me and offered to have the bed installed at their local CM bed dealer at a their cost, a "pass through" price ie no profit to them.

As it turned out, at the time my ordered truck arrived CM had just been purchased by BigTex trailers and was undergoing major business changes including ramping up their production by a significant volume and was running way behind and didn't get the bed I wanted built in time.

To make it worse, the silly woman office manager at that CM bed dealer I was dealing with was an airhead, not smart enough to communicate with me that the bed was not going to arrive on time so the bed purchase fell apart and I ended up buying the truck from my favorite out of town dealer, driving it (illegally) across the state with a dealer plate and buying an in stock bed at my local CM dealer and paying full retail. I'm not at home or I would dig out the old price sheet and give you the wholesale and retail prices on the beds. There is a good markup in them but I don't think CM bed dealers will compete on price. If you could talk a Dodge dealer into buying the bed at their cost and discounting it as a condition of sale you could save some additional money.

 

[HBarlow]

LED lighting is an (expensive) option on CM beds unless you buy the top of the line fancy model that comes with LED lamps. If you buy a lower priced model and want LED lighting I bought all the LED lamps for mine from SouthWest Wheel and changed them out myself at a fraction of the price quoted by CM.

BTW, I think I paid about $1500 for my CM SS bed. The total installed price with four underbed storage boxes mounted was about $3,000.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvey,



I was busy today and did not get to get the dealer on my truck. Worse, the idiots at Grande Truck Center said they are supposed to have 120 Sterlings, but can only find 80, and no 4500 QC and one 5500 QC. All the rest are regular cabs.



I guess we're going to go over the Sterling and just drive one and make some physical measurements too.





Thanks for the info. Wiredawg

 

[HBarlow]

Wiredawg:

Didn't you review the Dodge body builder guide? The distance from top of frame to ground on a 4500 is 33. 5" according to Dodge specs. Add 7 1/8" of CM bed and the bed deck will be approximately 40 5/8" from the pavement while unloaded. This leaves 8 3/8" to the bottom of your TS's kingpin plate unloaded. Allowing for about 2" - 3" of rear spring compression under full load you'll have room for a 10" to 11" fifth wheel hitch for level towing.

 

[RVTRKN]

Here is an example of what your thinking of, even though it is a little more expensive than a CM bed. You can see how a fiver would look hitched to it for a reference. The only negative is the B&W companion hitch for the flat bed is non adjustable, but if you request a specific height they will change it for you in production. Just thought I would give you another option, I love the fact I can use it as a utility body with a removable ladder rack that you don't see in these pics. It sits a little off level but you can't tell unless you use an actual level.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvey,



sorry, I hadn't gotten around to it yet... I'm struggling (and starting to win) w/ the Missus over the da--'d Warner stock looking bed. :{ I thinl telling her it is too high and won't work w/ the 5er is working (and true).



RVTRKN,

Thanks much. the GA dealer I'm gonna buy the truck from is also a B&W dealer. Sweet, huh? I sent the info to them, but I think I will try the Deluxe, so I can use the aux fuel tank/tool box combo out of my 3500.



I'll keep y'all apprised of my progress.



Wiredawg

 

[HBarlow]

Wiredawg:

Be careful and think carefully through the decision to install a tool box/tank combo at the front of the bed. Bed deck height and hitch height figure into this decision also. If you look at the photos sent above you'll see the dilemma when you turn the truck 90* from a straight line. The trailer's front overhang can easily come in contact with the tank if you don't allow for several inches of clearance. Even if you have adequate clearance on a flat parking lot the clearance becomes more of an issue when you turn tight and pull over a steep angled fuel stop driveway entrance or back into a rural campground on uneven ground.

I use a 70 gallon Transfer Flow aux fuel tank in the front of my bed. I've used it in all three of my Dodge Rams for hundreds of thousands of miles and feel like I can't travel without it (probably a little like a police officer going on duty w/o his service weapon) but it presents a clearance challenge. I don't have a lot of clearance when turning 90*.

I think you posted earlier that the kingpin assembly on your TS is adjusted all the way up already. This contributes to the problem because it reduces the clearance between bed deck and bottom of the trailer front overhang.

Another factor I haven't mentioned is the issue of bed deck height above the truck frame. You can't reduce the distance between bed deck and frame very much because when the typical flatbed/towbed is installed on the truck there is not a lot of clearance between top of tires and bottom of bed deck to allow for spring compression under load.

All of the dimensions are critical and have to be considered before plunking down a big bunch of cash or signing on the dotted line for a huge note at your cu.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvey,



I was thinking about that... do you think the box pin extension used on the shortbed trucks will solve this?



RVTRKN/Harvey,



Where do y'all store your spare tires. Unless it lays flat in front of 5th wheel hitch, I see storing on front of truck (air flow problems) or attach to headache rack (standing up).



Thanks, Wiredawg

 

[FFeiller]

i have the same problem with the spare. can't mount it under the frame because of fuel tank and driveshaft. i tried stuffing it in several places, no success, so i bolted it to the tool box behind the cab for my DMV/driver CDL inspection.



there were several mfgs at the 4-wheel parts show in Pleasanton, CA yesterday that make spare tire carriers for the trucks, might check to see if that works for you. a couple of them laid flat in the bed.



i don't know how much clearance you will have between the back of the truck and the trailer, but maybe a 2'x2" sq. tubed to slide into your rear hitch receiver (warner i think provides a receiver) weld a flat vertical plate to the tube and drill a couple of holes at or near the top to bolt the spare on vertically????



Rich

 

[FFeiller]

remember, the 4500 is a commercial vehicle, with or without a "pickup" bed , not a pickup truck, and CA expects you to stop at the weigh stations. if they chase you down it will be expensive. i don't know about other states.

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey,

I was thinking about that... do you think the box pin extension used on the shortbed trucks will solve this?

RVTRKN/Harvey,

Where do y'all store your spare tires. Unless it lays flat in front of 5th wheel hitch, I see storing on front of truck (air flow problems) or attach to headache rack (standing up).

Thanks, Wiredawg

Wiredawg,

I haven't measured the setback or considered if it would allow clearance so simply have nothing to contribute to that question. By setting my hitch at, IIRC, about 11" tall from the bed deck I have adequate clearance over my TF fuel tank but not a lot of surplus clearance. Raising your fiver hitch a small amount will increase clearance.

I retained the OEM never-on-the-ground spare wheel and tire from my '06 when I sold it but I haven't mounted it. I've travelled coast to coast and most of the USA with the '08 C&C w/o a spare. There is plenty of room on the deck of my bed behind the fifth wheel but I don't like the look and don't want to give up use of the deck when I occasionally haul something large and heavy on the truck so I've been taking the risk. I have only had ONE flat tire in just under 8 years and 600k miles with my Dodge duallies. I should have a bracket made to carry it on the bed when I'm pulling my trailer and going any distance.

 

[HBarlow]

I visited San Diego and LA last spring with my C&C towing my HH and travelled north on I-15 to Pahrump to attend May Madness. I ignored the scales. My truck is only a 3500 but it has a flatbed mounted, not a pickup bed.

It is my understanding that CA CHP scales don't want to be bothered with private RVers and that's what wiredawg will be.

During the visit to the LA area I visited my old boss at the small RV transport company I worked for. The owner was busy that day and talked me into taking his FL-70 and pulling a registered/privately owned fifth wheel TT up to, I think it was Twentynine Palms. I have a CDL A but don't have an air brake endorsement and the FL has airbrakes. So I left his magnetic transporter signs off the FL and ran the scale at Banning with my fingers crossed. It was a weird combination with a big fancy FL-70 with a huge built-in fiberglass sleeper pulling a cheapo little fiver with 15" wheels and tires. Fortunately, nobody at the Banning scale chased me down.

 

[FFeiller]

they don't even come close to going after everyone whether it is weight, or a traffic violation



you're right they seldom bother the RV'rs. too bad, i have seen several fatalities caused by RV'rs

 

[Wiredawg]

Looks Like a 2010 3500!

Well guys,



Vivian and I sat down and talked about what our new 4500 would and wouldn't have. It would solve our GCVWR problem, has heavier trans, driveline, brakes and frame. Here's where it falls short. She just doesn't like anything but a dually bed and the 4500 conversion dually bed won't clear the fiver and in my mind is way overpriced anyway. We really can't use the aux tool box/fuel tank we have and there's no place to store the spare. Reminds me when confirmation of the 4500/5500 trucks me I and some others posted we wished Dodge would do what Ford did with the F450 P/U dually. And no, I would rather keep my 02 3500 than buy a Ford.



Thanks for all the help and advice. It has really helped us reach what our real requirements are. I have to say, I'm disappointed in not getting the Aisin, because Dodge autos are crap. Had to rebuild transmission in '96 gasser and just had to rebuild the 48RE. I guess I'll buy the extended warranty on the 2010 and plan on 68RE rebuild at 100K miles. Buying the 2010 3500 dually w/ 25,400 GCVWR will also complete our colection of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen trucks. :-laf



Finally, Charles, the salesman at James O'Neal Dodge in Bremen GA is a super guy and I'm gonna mail him a couple hundred bucks for all his help and support.



Thanks again and see y'all on the other posts.



Wiredawg (Ron)

 

[HBarlow]

Yeah, lots of considerations and compromises must be made. Unfortunately there is no perfect tow vehicle for a large, heavy fiver like yours that can also serve as a daily driver. Even my medium-sized fiver with a GVWR of 14,000# puts my C&C a little over GCWR although the Dodge handles it with aplomb. I'm personally disappointed you've cancelled your plans because I wanted to hear from an RVer how the 4500 works as a tow vehicle.

FWIW, the F-450 Ferd pickup is not truly an F-450. I visited a Ferd dealer in late 2007 and looked them over carefully just out of curiosity. Ferd manufactures a real F-450 C&C and it has a frame similar to our Dodge 4500. If you look carefully at a Ferd F-450 pickup side by side with an F-350 it appears to be a standard F-350 with 19. 5" wheels and tires, a lower rear axle ratio, and a little more rear springs. The frame appears to be identical to the F-350. I will give Ferd credit for a good idea though. I actually wish Dodge would do something similar with our 3500s. But my point is, an F-450 p/up is not the same as an F-450 C&C and sure isn't equal to a Dodge Ram 4500.

My wife threw a fit back in 2001 when I announced that I was going to buy a dually pickup. Her point was it was "ugly. " I listened to her argument several times, explained that it was function I was after not beauty. She wasn't persuaded. Finally, I explained that I was going to buy it regardless and she could choose not to ride in it if she was so inclined. She got over it. Now she thinks my C&C with "UGLY" flatbed is perfectly okay. Women make decisions for different reasons.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvey,



I'm disappointed too. There's not too many things that get the best of me, but trying to get the 4500 where I want it was just darned hard. The best I could come up with on the spare tire was cut a notch in the hauler bed where the tire could stand up and be partially down between the frame rails. I am just anal about having a spare for the truck and each of my trailers. I also thought abut running stacks to allow more room for an aux tank.



But, you know what? I'm tired of extensive modifying trucks after I buy them. I felt I had the daily driver ride quality worked out by adding the heavy Brown's Welding steel bumper and the tow body.



Most disappointing is passing up the super deal and zero financing on everything. Oh well, I'll see what kind of great deals come up on the 2010s.



Thanks again Harvey.



Ron