Can DC trace boxes on the 3G's?

[sdriv]

I just recently took delivery of my new 05 and as I had in my previous 01 was looking to get a mild box (edge ez or equivalent) Someone mentioned to me that the boxes are traceable by DC and was wondering if that is true for all of them? Thanks!!

 

[Buffalo]

Sdriv,

I've been checking with the dealers here in Phoenix and all of them say that they can detect boxes. They, aparently, leave a footprint in the computer.

The "downloader" type are supposed to be very easily detectable. the preasure boxes, like Edge EZ, are a different story. Some say they can detect them if they really look for a footprint. Others say that if you take the box off and they don't see it, they may not go looking for the footprint.

I, recently, had a Dodge/Cummins tech tell me that if you want to preserve your warranty do not put any type of box on your truck. It's the old story. If you want to play you had better be prepared to pay!

Another thing was that all the dealers said that an after market muffler was OK and that an aftermarket Air Cleaner was OK, too. Guages, also. Two of the dealers said they want to see some sort of a muffler. Aparently, they don't like straight pipes.

Hope this helps. Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[BRuppel]

For the footprint I would guess that they would be looking at fuel ratios or fuel rail pressure. To solve this problem I would just disconnect your box, then disconnect both negative battery terminals for about 10 minutes and then put them back on. ECM should have to relearn everything and they will never be the wiser.

 

[DLeno]

For the footprint I would guess that they would be looking at fuel ratios or fuel rail pressure. To solve this problem I would just disconnect your box, then disconnect both negative battery terminals for about 10 minutes and then put them back on. ECM should have to relearn everything and they will never be the wiser.

The downloaders write the VIN number into the software with a timestamp, such that time of the the most recent flash is evident. The physical boxes don't leave anything behind except for physical install evidence. However, either method of performance enhancement can cause the ECM to store out of bounds conditions and set the MIL in the event of engine failure while the enhancement is installed.

 

[driverno8]

Every dealer around here (So Cal) could care less about a chip. I guess I'm lucky in that situation. As for detecting it. I don't know about the dealer. But if the problem was big enough for the dealer to call out DC. Then yes, DC will find out. When I had my motor let go, the dealer didn't care (Hosick in Vandalia, IL). But they were only aloud to tear down so far before the had to call a DC rep out. He's the one that found traces of a tuner and said no way. Expensive lesson.



The pay to play part... . Yep that's my license plate PAY2PLY

 

[Sarge]

Not true driveno8. I sold my 01' to a guy from Norco Ca about a year ago. It had an EDGE EZ on it. I fully explained the box to the buyer, and told him that it was his choice to leave it on, or take it off. About 1000 miles later, the VP44 crapped out. He took it to Frahm Dodge in Norco. They saw the Edge and denied warranty on the spot. He was not upset with me, but really steamed at the dealer. Wound up costing him about $3000 for the pump and to have it installed. Be careful about what you post. Somebody may get really hammered... ... ..... Sarge

 

[sdriv]

So I understand the "you play you pay" philosophy, and I am really impressed with the power of my new truck. So I am now hessitant to put an EZ box on cause I was under the impression that any trace of the box was cleared with the battery dissconnect and actually the Edge EZ wasn't too potent to cause problems. I had one on my 01 and it really woke the truck up. So are there any other mods that give just that extra boost of power maybe another 30-60 HP and most of all that great black smoke in the ricers window at the stop lights :-laf . Also how many miles should I wait for break-in before I do add any HP?

 

[Alan Reagan]

As the other post stated, it is the "out of bounds" info that is stored and not cleared. It's the same type of information as idle time, engine top speed, etc. It is never cleared.

 

[DLeno]

Before installing any enhancement, you must understand the consequences and risks. not all dealers are box freindly - but it turns out that for the 2nd gen VP44 trucks, they are pretty sensitive to VP44 failures. There is a known reliability problem with the VP44 and they are all over it. Even if the dealer is box freindly, they are powerless to award warranty coverage for the VP44 because that is a STAR line item only, and STAR automatically denies warranty when they see a performance enhancment. the part is very heavily controlled. the VP44 issue is especially bad for the early 2nd gen trucks, 98. 5 to 2000, maybe 2001 I don't remember.



the buyer could have toasted his VP44 with something completely unrelated to the VP44 (lift pump, for example, widely recognized to toast VP44s), but as soon as they see the EZ on there, they deny coverage. you can fight it with the warranty laws in place today (mfg has to prove that the enhancement caused the failure) but especially in the case of the VP44 thats not a battle you can usually win. The unfortunate part is that, especially in the case of a mild box like the EZ, its probably not the box that toasted the VP44, but its presence captured all the attention of those passionate about denying warranty coverage -- and believe me DC is passionate about the VP44 because they have had to replace so many. DC absorbs the cost of all warranty work they aprove (not Bosch or Cummins if I remember correctly) so its not something they can just pass on to the component supplier.



When the truck is new, it is "balanced" in its approach to power -- meaning that all the imporant parameters from drivelines to exhaust gas temps are within acceptable limits. When you take one of those parameters outside of the original design point (add fuel), you have to take responsibility for the other parameters you impact, as well as the risks to the warranty which includes hightened awarness of particular problem areas like the VP44.



see TDR isssue 45 "technical topics" for an introduction to 3rd gen power enhancments, where principles of balanced power upgrades are discussed. TDR issue 47 has even more detail on current power enhancments for the 3rd gen 305HP truck. -- Doug

 

[DLeno]

As the other post stated, it is the "out of bounds" info that is stored and not cleared. It's the same type of information as idle time, engine top speed, etc. It is never cleared.

Yes, and as regards the orignial question: an external box like the EZ does "signal fooling" so that the ECM never sees an out of bounds condition. put any of the external fueling boxes on the truck and the ECM sees and records nothing but in-bounds values. If that were not so, then the boxes would throw codes and the ECM would react rather un-favorably .



However, if someone is passionate about a forensic investigation there are some clues that can be reviewed. for example, boost fooling is the practice of lying to the ECM and giving it only some maximum boost value. Most traditional boxes clamp this to some value just below the ECMs pain threshhold, such that such a "signature" (remarkably consistent maximum boost values) may be detectable by someone doing deep research into the ECMs stored memory.



Again, if the box itself fails, it may send an out of bounds signal to the ECM. and if the engine fails while the box is still working correctly, it will record all the conditions it can (including boost, as discussed above) for later review.



And downloaders always record out of bounds operating conditions in the ECM because the out of bounds trigger itself is disabled. No "event" is necessary for the ECM to suddenly record current conditions and set a code. Unless I'm mistaken, you could have an engine failure without setting a code and still leave plenty of forensic evidence behind of operating conditions that are out of bounds.

 

[Sarge]

Great explanation Doug, thanks... .

 

[Alan Reagan]

That is a good explanation, Dave.



When I said never cleared, what I should have said was some are never cleared even when disconnecting the battery. Some faults like MAP sensor overvoltage can be cleared from the computer with a scan tool but not by unplugging (if I understand the system correctly). Unplugging the batteries will just stop the fault from triggering the "Check Engine Light". I believe I had read that even though the faults are cleared, the ECM memory still retains the max value and out of bound conditions. A max value for instance is engine idle time or highest engine RPM. Out of bounds might be a MAP (boost) overvoltage condition where the most it has ever seen is stored.

 

[DLeno]

yea I think we're on the same page. to clarify for others who may still have questions.



First of all there is the "check engine light". It may or MAY NOT come on when there is a stored code in the ECM. turning this off by disconnecting the batteries doesn't do anything to the information stored in the ECM. it hides the obvious visual indication that there is stored information but does not affect the information itself.



2nd, there is the stored, on-board diagnostics code itself. This is a standardized set of codes which you can look up on the web by searching by obd-II, on-board diagnostics, or something similar. The code doesn't itself contain any parametric values -- it only indicates which portion of the vehicle systems is complaining.



3rd there are the parametric values themselves. boost reading, coolant temparture, etc. These are stored (I believe) all the time -- for how long I really don't know, but I think its fair to suggest that maximum, minimum readings, etc. are in there. the ECM knows how many hours are on the engine, your maximum speed, number of warm-up cycles, hours of idle, and a bunch of other stuff, probably including some interesting maximums and minumums. Some parametric information is available via OBD, but this is only a small subset of the info that is carried around by the computer and available to the dealer via DRB.



4th, there are the parametric values stored along with a particular engine code. I haven't read a difinative explanation here, but I suspect that when the ECM thows a code it also captures some forensic information. This may or may not be more than the previous information, or it may have a different timestamp associated with it. I would need to find out more details to give more specific info.



The ECM doesn't have a lot of memory. So I suspect that historical information is reduced to single values. things such as engine hours, number of warm-up cycles, etc. I haven't provent this but suspect that throwing an engine code is like turning on the vehicles black box recorder, capturing all the available engine information instantaneously for later review.



-Doug

 

[Alan Reagan]

I agree with all of that.