Castrol Syntec

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I got an email today which said that Castrol Syntec was not using any synthetics at all, but was ordinary 100% petrolium. Anyone seen anything on this?

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2000 quad cab auto transmission, tow 11K 5th wheel

 

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Getting straight information on motor oils is nearly impossible and now appears it will be even more confusing for us consumers. Castrol Syntec is a petroleum based oil that is produced by a severe hydrocracking process which involves heating in the presence of hydrogen and several catalysts. The idea is to convert most of the undesirable components (things that can oxidize or break down) in a refined feedstock either to lubricants or to harmless molecules. Refined mineral oils can contain as much as 20% of their volume as undesirable aromatic compounds, etc. Hydrocracking gets rid of most of this stuff and also reduces the oxidizable groups in the oil molecules themselves. This is supposed to give a product that is 99+% pure lubricant, with viscosity properties, oxidation resistance, pour points, and flash points similar to full synthetic oils. True synthetics (Amsoil, Mobil 1, Delvac 1), in principle, get to the same product by making the base stock directly from chemical building blocks called polyalphaolephins. Castrol has argued successfully vs Mobil that since the end products are essentially the same, they should be able to call their oil synthetic. As the Amsoil men will tell you, there are significant theoretical advantages to true synthetics. Since the synthetic process can be carefully controlled, there should be fewer undesirable byproducts in the oil. Plus, the size and composition of the lubricating molecules should be more uniform that which can be economically produced from crude petroleum. But it remains to be seen whether or not hydrocracked products are as good as true synthetics. Only long term on the road data, if anyone every makes it available in any form other than testimonials, will let us make informed decisions.

By the way, Castrol Syntec is an automotive oil. It is not CH-4 rated for use in low emission diesels. A good diesel oil requires properties beyond those needed by an automotive oil. Interestingly, Chevron Delo 400 is supposed to be a hydocracked product yet it does not command the premium price of Syntec. Delo does seem to be superior to other petroleum based oils according to data on the Amsoil web pages.

Sorry for the long post, but I try to keep abreast of the petroleum industry searching for the “best” lubricants. But with an engine designed to last 400,000 miles with ordinary maintenance, I am probably wasting my time obsessing about such things.

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1999 Quad cab 2500, SB, SLT, 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 54, tow and camper package, Lance 820 camper, Lance cabover stabilizers, Rancho 9000s, Airlift airbags

 

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Nice post Lee, any time you feel like informing the masses like this feel free, I for one come to this sight to read posts just like yours. Regards, Pete

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99'3500,quad cab,4X4,a/t
3:54,all the right packages!

 

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Lee,
That was a very good post concerning the Castrol Syntec.

I am an Amsoil Direct Jobber, and I too read all I can to get the most infornmation concerning oils and lubricants. I just received some info on the subject of Castrol Syntec.

There was a ruling in favor of Castrol by the National Advertising Division of the Counceil of better business.

The NAD found that castrol was justified in calling Syntec, a motor oil now made with hydroisomerized bas oils in place of polyalphaolefins, a "Synthetic" oil, contrary to the complaint of Mobil Oil Corp. The NAD, however, ruled that castrol MAY NOT CLAIM that Syntec offers "superior engine protection" OR that its esters provide "Unique Molecular bondng".

I thought this was a very interesting twist!

This information came form "Lubricants World" magazine, Oct. 99 issue.


Best regards,


Wayne
amsoilman

 

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Thanks for all the good information, Lee. I don't have any facilities for changing my own oil (full time RV'r) and rely on a local shade tree mechanic for such stuff. On my 95 I changed the oil overy 3000 miles, but after reading the manual on my y2k I wonder if that isn't a little overkill. During the summer I tow, and every 3000 to 3500 seems like a good idea, but is it necessary when there is no heavy load applied and most driving is expressway????

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2000 quad cab auto transmission, tow 11K 5th wheel

 

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Lee, I just read your post on oils and is is excellent! It is posts like this one that makes the TDRoundtable so interesting and beneficial. Thanks

 

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WHAT LUBE'S TO USE
IF COST IS A FACTOR SAFE BET IS CUMMINS BLUE I THINK THE ALSO HAVE A HIGHER CMMINS BLUE 2 ?? BUT IN THE SHORT OF IT THE ARE NOT IN THE OIL BUSSINES AND THE DONT WANT TO BE HOW EVER THE ARE IN THE ENGINE BUSSINESS AND IF A ENGINE GO'S DOWN AND OWNER IS TOLD THERE OIL DIDN'T DO ITS JOB AND DIDNT MET MIN. SPEC'S THAT GIVES THEM A BIG BLACK EYE. THIS HAS HAPPENED IN THE PASTSO TO GIVE THERE CUSTOMERS SOME PROTECTION THEY ALONG WITH A OIL MFG,(VALVOLINE) FORMULATED THE STANDARDS AND PUT CUMMINS BLUE NAME ON IT. AND THEY STAND BEHIND IT. COST IS IN LINE. NOW THE OWNER ONLY HAS TO CHANGE IT AS NEEDED PER THERE USE,MILES/HOURS/CONDITIONS. IF IN DOUBT SAMPLE A COUPLE TIMES TO GET A PATTERN FLEETGUARD /CUMMINS HAS A SERVICE AND MOST SHOPS HAVE THE BOTTLE KITS ON HAND. IF YOU ONLY RUN 10-15K PER YEAR EVERY 3000 IS ENOUGH. HEATING AND COOLING OF SHORTS IS NOT GOOD ON ANY TYPE OF ENG. THIS CAUSES CONDENSATION= WATER+GASES=ACIDS.
SOME PEOPLE THINK BECAUSE THE OIL IS BLACK SOMETHING IS WRONG AND YOU MUST CHANGE . NOT IT MEANS ONLY ONE THING THE OIL IS DOING ITS JOP AND THE ONE TRUE WAY TO SEE HOW IT IS DOING IS TO SAMPLE. SAMPLE. SAMPLE THEN GO FROM THERE. SHELL ROTELLA T IS ALSO GOOD SAME AS ABOVE. IF IN DOUBT ABOUT READ THE CAN AND LOOK FOR THE MIM. CMMNS SPEC'S
I'VE TESTED SYNTHETICS IN THE PAST, 5 ENGINES
OVER 100K ALL RUNNING AT THE SAME TIMES IN BIG TRUCKS AND THE ONLY ADVANTAGE WE FOUND YOU COULD LEAVE IT IN LONGER AND---HAD TOO WHEN YOU FACTORED IN THE HIGH COST.
ALSO --PRICE IN ANY THING MEANS NOTHING---
INCLUDING OIL PRODUCTS. I KNOW OF ONE OIL COMPANY IN THE PAST THAT THERE SALES PEOPLE WERE PAIED 50 % COMMISSION THAT WAS FROM ONE OF THERE PEOPLE (THAT COMPANY IS NOT POSTED HERE) YOU CAN"T BUY IT OFF THE SHELF.
OH. I MIGHT ADD ONE THING FULL SYNTHETICS DON'T GET ALONG WITH IS MOISTURE/WATER. WHERE SEMI/SYNTHETICS AND CONVENTIONAL LUBES GIVES BETTER PROTECTIONS,SHOULD YOU BURY THE RUNNING GEAR IN WATER,OR HAVE A OIL COOLER LEAK AND DON'T FIND IT TILL THE OIL SAMPLE RETURNS OR YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IT AS YOU CHANGE THE LUBES.
AS FAR AS CASTROL SYNTEC 85W90 I HAVE USED IT IN MY 5 SPD TRANY FOR OVER 500K (NV4500)
IN LUE OF SYNTORQ (PRICE & WHEN I HAD DRAINED IT AND WENT TO GET SOME FOR REFILL WAS TOLD STOCK WOULD NOT BE IN FOR TWO DAYS,
NOW AS A PAST DIESEL MECH-PARTS MANG. & MAINT. DIR YOU COULD ABOUT GUESS WHAT I HAD TO SAY. I FOUND SYNTEX ON LOCAL PARTS STORE SHELF AND WHEN I HAD THE transmission OUT I TORE IT CLEAR DOWN JUST TO CHECK FOR WEAR.
AS FOR ENG OIL I USE 15W50 CENTURY/FUCHS AND CHANGE BETWEEN 7500-8000 MI. WHEN I DRAINED THE FACTORY FILL I KNEW I WAS GOING TO RUN HIGH MILES SO I WAITED FOR THE BREAK-IN TO COME AROUND (ABOUT 55K)THEN WATCHED AND WHEN THE OIL ATARTED TO DROP ON THE STICK IT WAS OVER 8200 MI SO I SET CHANGE TO 7500 AND BY 8000.
WITH OVER 670,000 TO DATE I STILL DON'T HAV TO ADD BETWEEN CHANGES.
I KNEW THIS OIL BY MANY MILLION'S OF MILES OF USE IN BIG RIG'S AND WE SOLD THEM DIRECT TO THE SECOND OWNER WITH OUT OVERHAUL'S AT 550-650K WHEN HE CAME BACK FOR MORE 2 YEARS LATER HE SAID HE OVERHAULED THEM AROUND 850K SO HE DIDN'T TAKE A PRICE BEATING FRON THE NEXT OWNER.
I'M NOT A OIL SALES PERSON,JUST BEEN THERE DONE THAT OVER 37 YR'S IN THE TRANSPORTATION
INDUSTRY. I LOVE TO DRIVE AND WORK ON THEM.

 

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Great information on this post. Professor Lee Weber, you nailed the Castrol issue very well. Might add one comment. Most synthetic PAO's and Esters are double bonded where the Hydrocracked oil is still single bonded as it comes in nature. No matter how long or how sophisticated the refining of the oil, it takes manufacturing the PAO or Diesters to double bond the Hydrogen and Carbon atoms. Naturally, when comparing Hydrocracked oil and true synthetics, you will see higher volitity rates for Hydrocracked and lower flash points as well as higher pour points. Hydrocracked oil is certainly better than regular petroleum but, lacks many features of true PAO / Ester based synthetics. These differences will begin to be pointed out by companies that still make true synthetics and we will eventually have 3 classes of oil. The one thing I can never forgive Castol for is the price and the secrecy of the change. They continued to run the same commercials and on the website they still used the original definition of synthetic that would call their Hydrocracked oil petroleum. As you said, Chevron Delo 400 is Hydrocracked and its just over half the price of Castrol Syntec. Seems Castrol is intending to sell the Hydrocracked oil as synthetic and double their profits.

TDRMBRAMR

The voice of experience is to be respected, thanks for the info. The gear oil you used from Castrol was probably the PAO basestock since you ran it for 500K it probably goes back several years.

You mention synthetic lubes and water. The measure of the ability of an oil to deal with water is called demulsibility. When oil mixes with water it is called emulsion or emulsifying. Emulsufied oil is a foam of water mixed with oil and is very poor at lubricating. Modern synthetic gear oils have much higher demulsibility ratings than petroleum gear oils. In the early days of making synthetics the basestocks were sometimes 100% Diester or Polyol Ester. Esters have an affinity for moisture and may be the source of your information. Modern synthetics like Amsoil and Mobil are mixtures of PAO's and Esters which achieve remarkable succes in keeping the water and the oils separated like salad dressing and water. I have supplied various Marine repair shops with synthetic gear oils because the OEM's were requiring the synthetic. Several of these shops have found the outdrive to be half full of water when it comes in for service and the gears are as good as new and there is no sign of corrosion. This has become one of the major selling points for the use of synthetics in the marine applications.

Hope this is helpful

 

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DAN
GOOD INFO
THE LUBE/MOISTURE PROBLEM I SAW(NOT IN THE FLEET I WORKED FOR) WAS IN THE REAR END,S OF BIG RIGS 5 YEARS AGO AND RAN THE M. SYN. LUBE 80,000LB.
THE MAIN POINT I HOPE THAT GOT ACROSS WAS IF YOU ARE OUT IN THE MUD AND WATER CHECK THOSE GEAR BOX'S. KIND OF THE OLD SAYING PAY ME NOW, OR PAY ME LATER.
CASTROL SYNTEX I USE IN MY transmission FOR THE LAST 3 1/2 YEARS SO FAR IM PLEASED WITH,NO SEAL LEAKS,MOISTURE,AND WHEN I TORE IT DOWN AT AROUND 300K TO TRY THE 5 GEAR FIX I HAD IT ALL IN PIECES TO CHECK FOR WEAR AND SAW NO SIGNS,NOW OVER 690K.
AS FOR THE REAR END I USE MY TRIED AND PROVEN LUBE.

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96-3500 SLT EXT. CAB AM/FM/CD-RINO LINER. D-CELERATOR EXH. BRK-RED LINE VAC. OVER HYD BRK CONTROL- AIR BAGS W/HVY DUTY AIR COMP. PUTCO S/STEEL DEEPBOARDS FRONT TO REAR. REESE 20K 5TH WHEEL & GOOSE -REESE 20K HITCH BELOW W/17K RECEVER. CLEAR COATED & SOUND DEADINGING &UNDER COATED 5 SPD/W 4:10 MCHLN'S 235/16'S UNIDEN PC76/WEATHER-WILSON 1000 MAG MOUNT ANT. 4 WHL ANTI LOC BRK SYS.

 

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WOW!, if you are in the mood to read just ask a question about OIL. All good information, thanks.

Walt

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91 D350, BD Brake,Gear Vendors O/U Drive,Gauges-Pyro,boost,tach,trans,rearend,brake,
Airbag rear,Transfer flow tool/tank, Exh. sys,Rino lined bed, Alcoa Mags,SS runningboards.

 

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Hay guys, check out these facts, they come from a mobil fact sheet.

FACTS ABOUT SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS

Synthetic lubricants are the products of the chemical reaction of low-molecular-weight components forming larger molecules. The resulting fluids have the phsical properties and performance characteristics which make them ideal as base oils for lubricants. Unlike mineral oils, which are a complex mixture of naturally occurring hydrocarbons, synthetic base fluids are tailored to have a controlled molecular structure with predictable properties.

Synthesized base fluids are classified as follows:
1
Synthesized Hydrocarbons
Olefin Oligomers
Cycloaliphatics
Alkylated Aromatics
Polybutenes
2
Organic Esters
Dibasic Acid Esters
Ployol Esters
3
Polyglycols
4
Phosphate Esters
5
Other
Silcates
Silcones
Polyphenyl Ethers
Fluorocarbons

SYNTHESIZED HYDROCARBON FLUIDS
Mobil synthesized fluids (SHF) are produced from specific oiefins by a controlled polymerization process.

Since the preferred chemical structures can be selected and controlled by processing, the synthesized hydrocarbon fluids are almost entirely paraffinic, giving a much greater degree of stabinity than fluids with aromatic or naphthenic ring structures. And, because undesirable waxy materials are absent, very low pour points are achieved.

Mobil SHF lubricants have seven noteworthy advantages over high-quality mineral oil lubricants:
1.
Excellent viscosity/temperature propertiesand shear stability provide improved wear protection
2
Good high-temperature oxidation and thermal stability reduce deposit formation. Typically, the upper operating limit for SHF lubricants is 50 Celsius degrees higher (100Fahrenheit degrees) than the maximum temperature for high-quality mineral oils.
3
Good low-temperature characteristics (pour point -67 F) improve cold-temp flow properties.
4.
Compatible with mineral oils so no special system design required.
5.
Long service life - three to five times better than the best mineral oils when stressed by temperature.
6.
Low volatility reduces consumption and extends service life.
7.
Traction properties conserve energy by reducing internal fluid friction under EHL cinditions

MOBIL SHF LUBRICANTS INCLUDE;
Mobil 1
Mobil Delvac SHC 1
Mobil Delvac 1
and 24 other oils and greases

I have heard a lot of things on the TDR about synthetic oils being better but it seems that most of us don't know what synthetic really means. Most of us thought that the Mobil Delvac oil was synthetic, however the info I just printed from Mobil proves different. It seems that most of the oils still start with a petro oil and turn it into a synthetic. The performance, the low temp pour point and the high temp range of the Mobil Delvac 1 oil fooled me also. It can only be called a synthetic because man has changed it not because it is a pure synthetic. Sincerely, Kevin Dinwiddie

 

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Kevin -- I don't see anything in your post that would indicate that any Delvac 1 components are produced by refining or hydrocracking. Mobile lists Delvac 1 as SHF, which means that it is fully synthetic. The point of the litigation with Castrol was that Mobil 1, Delvac 1, etc. did not contain petroleum distillates or products of hydrocracking.

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1999 Quad cab 2500, SB, SLT, 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 54, tow and camper package, Lance 820 camper, Lance cabover stabilizers, Rancho 9000s, Airlift airbags

 

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Lee, got your e-mail. The S in SHC does not stand for synthetic it stands for synthesized as in synthesized hydrocarbons made from parraffinic type of petro oil. The term synthetic is different for chemists than it is for advertising laws. Chemists should know when something is made from chemicals and they would call that synthetic. Advertising laws say that if man changed it in any way then it can be called synthetic. These oils are being sold as synthetics when they are made from petro base stocks and then changed.

 

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Just had an oil analysis on my truck. It has 53,000 on it. I have used Premium blue 2000 since 5K. I ran the oil for 7,500 miles (Montana to Alabama and back, empty at 75 to 80mph). The oil tested below all averages, and Blackstone (the analysis people) said it showed very low bearing wear. I think this says something for this oil. I have just switched to Delvac 1 for winter use for the first time. We will see how it tests at 7,000 miles.
Jack

Is Delvac 1 really not full synthetic???



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52,500 miles 22Dec99

1997 Red 4x4, 5 spd, 3. 54 rear, Older slide in camper, Trails West 2 horse slant trailer, K&N air, 255. 85. 16 Big O XT, Banks Stinger Plus(minus exhaust), 4" BD exhaust (minus the muffler), A pillar gauge mounts, after market overload springs, shelf-it overhead storage, CB overhead with cord hanging down like the BIG trucks

 

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Ah! Now I understand where you are coming from, Kevin. I think your argument is pretty similar to the one made by Castrol. Since the building blocks used to make “full synthetic” oil are mostly refined from mineral oil, then they are not really synthetic. To fit that definition, synthetic paraffin oil would have to be “synthesized” from carbon and hydrogen atoms. We can’t do that today at any reasonable cost or efficiency.

All hydrocarbons originally came from plants which fix CO2 from the atmosphere into all of the complex organic molecules. Decay and millions of years of geological heat and pressure has converted ancient plants and animals (which ate the plants) into petroleum, coal, and natural gas. These are the sources of all present day hydrocarbons used for fuels and lubricants. An exception are “biofuels”, which are produced directly from living plant material (at considerable expense). Natural petroleum contains complex mixtures of organic polymers including a mixture of alkanes (saturated hydrocarbon chains) ranging in size from 1 carbon to 30 or 40. Compounds shorter than 5 carbons are gases at room temp. Chains between 5 and 18 carbons are volatile liquids (gas = 5 - 10, diesel 12 - 18). Lubricating oil base stocks are composed of the longer chains that are attached to cyclic structures that tend to keep them liquid. Pure alkane chains between 20 and 40 carbons are waxes that can be removed by chilling and filtration. As I mentioned above, natural petroleum also contains lots of other stuff such unsaturated hydrocarbons (olefins) and aromatic compounds. Isohydrocracking (the process used by Castrol) gets rid of most of these, but they are still left with a fairly wide range of polymer lengths. This is evidenced by the pour and flash points which are not as good as for true synthetics.

Now it is true that compounds such as polyalphaolefins (one of the building blocks used to make a full synthetic like Delvac 1 or Amsoil) can be made from petroleum by a “cracking” procedure that breaks down long chain hydrocarbons. But because they are short chain hydrocarbons they can easily be purified, unlike the non-volatile long chain components of lubricating oil. Polyalphaolefins have reactive double bonds that can be used in a carefully controlled condensation reaction to give a product with a very uniform chain length. And since you start out with reactants that are 99% pure, there are few impurities in the final product.

So what does this all mean in terms of oil performance? Full synthetics such as Delvac 1 and Amsoil are made by a different procedure than Castrol Syntec. They are “full synthetic” in my opinion and are theoretically better. But you are can see with the complexity of this issue how the lawyers must have had a field day. And that is no doubt why Mobil settled the case and let Castrol continue to call Syntec a “synthetic” oil since it is made by a “synthetic” process. It would have taken too much time and money to fight. And people in the lube oil industry already know the difference. Only the consumers will be confused.


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1999 Quad cab 2500, SB, SLT, 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 54, tow and camper package, Lance 820 camper, Lance cabover stabilizers, Rancho 9000s, Airlift airbags

 

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Lee, you say that "synthetic paraffin oil would have to be synthesized from carbon and hydrogen atoms" and you say "we can't do that today with any reasonable cost or efficiency"
Lee, I don't confess to be smarter than the engineers at Mobil that designed Mobil Delvac 1 and 23 other Mobil products, but it sure sounds like you think you are. Synthesized oils are very common today and have been for a few years. It the Mobil engineers say that their synthesized hydrocarbon fluids are almost entirely paraffinic then I believe them. Everyone on the TDR wants to know what synthetic is---Mobil just told us.

You state that PAO's have double bonds, this is true. You say this as if double bonds are better, but that means nothing. Napthenic oils have double bonds and make poor lubricants for internal combustion engines.

Keep in mind that in my opinion Mobil Delvac 1 is a very good oil, it's just bade from petrol. oil.

Sincerely Kevin Dinwiddie

 

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Great posts and all but I must be tired, since I reached the end and I'm totally confused...

I run Cummins (Valvoline) PB2000 which is a "synthetic blend", which I've always assumed to mean some synthetic and some petroleum base,,, true assumption? And is that a good idea (blend)? As posted by someone previous my position is Cummins can never complain about my oil or filters since I buy them from Cummins. I have noticed a downright scary sticky black crud consistency to my oil which means it's doing it's job or I have bad rings somewhere (oil analysis next change). I fear I blew a filter before the stratopore upgrade. We'll see.


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Big MAK
98. 5 ISB 5spd 4x4 Quad Cab 3500, 4" Exhaust elbow down, PowerMax1, dang near everything else
https://www.turbodieseltrucks.com

 

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Kevin – I think we’re talking past each other here. I don’t think an oil has to be synthesized from carbon and hydrogen atoms in order to be called synthetic. I thought that was what you were saying. I agree with Mobil’s position. They make their synthetic lubes from purified hydrocarbon precursors, which are mostly derived from petroleum. The lubes are still fully synthetic to my mind. Castrol treats and further refines a petroleum base oil and also calls their oil synthetic. There has been a settlement that allows Castrol to call their oil synthetic. I don’t believe the resulting oils are equivalent. True synthetic (Mobil, Amsoil) is probably better.

And yes, the objective of making a synthetic oil is to produce a paraffin based product just like mineral oil. It is just that the paraffin component of mineral oils have been produced “naturally”, by geochemical processes. The paraffin components of synthetic oils are produced by man made chemical processes. Again, the difference is that the synthetic product is more uniform in polymer length and has fewer impurities.

As you point out, double bonds are generally not good in a finished lubricant product because they are can react with other components. If I remember my organic chemistry (and I am a little foggy here), alpha olefins contain a single reactive double bond that is necessary for the polymerization process. If you chemically condense 4 carbon alpha olefin chains, you get 8 carbon POA’s (poly alpha olefin) which contain a single double bond at completion of the reaction. Add additional 4 carbon alpha olefin and you get a 12 carbon chain, etc. Thus, you can control the length of the final product pretty closely. A true paraffin is a hydrocarbon chain with no double bonds. Synthetic POA’s should contain a single double bond at one end of the molecule. I don’t know if the industrial process reduces that bond in the finished product or relies on added anti-oxidant components to keep things stabile. But the end result is an excellent lubricant which is quit stabile relative to complex mixture of components in refined mineral oil. Of course, synthetic oils are not simply made of POA’s. Each company adds it’s own proprietary mixture of other synthetic components.

Kevin, I think we have a semantic argument going on here. And maybe we better stop before we confuse the rest of the folks. Or worse yet, bore them to death. You can send me e-mail if you like.

Mark, you are correct. Synthetic blends are mixtures of mineral and synthetic base stock. They provide some of the benefits of synthetics; primarily better pour points for cold weather use. They are a lot cheaper than full synthetics and may be worth the money. I wouldn’t recommend them for extended oil changes, since the conventional oil components can break down over time. If you blew a filter, I think you would have known it (no oil pressure and soon no oil). Oil analysis should set your mind at ease (or not).


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1999 Quad cab 2500, SB, SLT, 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 54, tow and camper package, Lance 820 camper, Lance cabover stabilizers, Rancho 9000s, Airlift airbags