Clutch pedal almost gone (G56) stock <help>

[MegaTony06]

The clutch pedal on my 2006 is slowly getting worse.



Only the very bottom 1 inch is doing any work (read as offering any resistance to my foot). It used to engage right away.



This is just a pedal issue and not an entire clutch assembly issue... right?



No noise from the G56 and it holds (not slipping).



Is this something that I can diagnose myself? Where do I look first?

 

[MAshley]

well one thing I would check is the oil resorvor for the clutch. Its near the brake resovor under the hood on the drivers side. Small round cap.



Maybe your going to get off lucky with a cap that broke or is missing, and or maybe a leaking hose. Look for any oil residue?



Did it get worse over a matter of days ? or months ? Do you notice your shoes getting dirtier latley?





If this resovor is full and no signs of leaks Im kind of out of sugestions, If it is empty you may get away with adding some brake fluid and the pedal will return, if you have to add and it doesn't return to normal you may have to bleed the system like brakes on a car. If it is empty you have a leak somewhere that needs to be addressed before it is a complete fix.



How many Miles ?

 

[MegaTony06]

46,000 miles approx.



Reservoir is full and clean. No leaks... at least that can be found. When I parked yesterday I went tracing lines and today no puddles or new drips along the lines.



Happened just lately (last 2 days).



I am planning for the worst... replacing clutch... Southbend G56OK if it comes to that. However, I don't think the clutch is the problem or it would be slipping or making noise. It seems that just the pedal is getting "soft".

 

[JGheen]

Yeah, something is up with the pedal. If its under warranty then take it to the dealer but if not there is no way to bleed the system from what I have been told due to it being a sealed system. I had to install a new one a while back for reasons I would rather not get into but basically the plunger connected to the back of the pedal had come out of its holder/cylinder and I ended up bending the plunger shaft not knowing it had come out. Warranty didn't cover it, I should have tried harder to get it under warranty but ended up spending about $200, I believe, on new factory hydrolics. Very easy to install, a 2 piece system that has a quick-connect fitting that u snap together once the reservoir and pedal sides are mounted.

I am pretty sure you clutch is good although these DMF clutches on the G56 aren't the greatest design ever and have been known to fail.



Joe

 

[GCroyle]

My . 02$



I have also read it in the FSM, do not seperate and service as components. That is what Dodge says or something close to it.



Yes these systems can be tested independant of the clutch. It always feels good to find a problem or prove that the problem is elsewhere before you spend any unnecessary money.



I have disassembled and reassembeled G56 and NV5600 clutch hydraulics and bled them w/o any special tools. It can be done and in a short period of time. It is your truck and if you have some basic skills you can test and bleed it if the test confirms that the system is not working properly, you have a confirmation and a chance to fix it.



YouTube - perfectionclutch's Channel



Good luck.

 

[MegaTony06]

No warranty. Only the Cummins is still covered.



Wow... GCroyle... that is awesome... . off to the garage with my bleeding self. Fingers crossed.



Thanks in advance. Will post the results.

 

[GCroyle]

Tony,



Good luck, at least this gives you a chance to diagnosis and take the next step with a bit more knowledge.



FWIW, I'm running a G56 hand built system on my NV5600 right now.



Gary

 

[PFlory]

My 2001 went out similarly, with no slipping. I replaced the entire hydraulic system fairly easily in about an hour, and sold the truck with later with 190K on the original NV5600 clutch. It doesn't seem that I'm going to have that same luck with the '06 though.

 

[Barry]

Gary Croyle at Perfection replaced my complete hydraulic system with one of their units and it is AWESOME!



He handed me one of their units in one hand and an OEM unit in the other. The OEM unit is a piece of junk. I then watched him get ALL the air bubbles out of the system he installed in my truck. It can be done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MegaTony06]

Well here is the verdict: After bleeding the line and re-installing the clutch the pedal still feels soft but engages at least 1" earlier.



The whole story:



Found that the play in my hydraulic from the Master to the Slave was about 1/2". Found air in the hydraulic line. Not alot but some. Took some pictures but did not catch the bubbles in the picture. Also, found that the retaining washer was not completely set and was moving (Master Cylinder from the Clutch pedal has a retention washer that keeps the spring and internal parts inside the Master Cylinder housing).



Used the procedure that GCroyle posted in his video. Pretty simple... except for the safety switch connector... that little thing did not want to disconnect.



There are only two line/body clips from on the Hydraulic line from the Master to the Slave that keep the line from dangling about. The slave comes out easy with a 1/2" deep well on an wobble extension. The Master is just a 1/4 turn toward the engine and it will come out with some maneuvering around - keep the lid on or you will spill brake fluid everywhere.



After bleeding the line and re-installing the clutch the pedal still feels soft but engages at least 1" earlier.



So, things are better, but I still think the pedal is too soft. Maybe I am imagining things. I know this isn't a race clutch and have had this since new... I am not taking steroids or anything... it just feels softer than before. The clutch itself still feels solid... tried to force it to slip a couple of times, it didn't. Now to keep an eye on it. Would like to try and open up the clutch itself to check it... However, going with the "not broke, don't fix it" routine for now.



Thank you very much Gary for your time and help.



I'll post up some pictures after I get them loaded.

 

[GCroyle]

Tony,



Suggestion, find another STOCK G56 and feel the pedal in that truck. If if it not stock, comparison will be invalid.



I pushed the pedal on a stock G56 with a new factory clutch and yes, IMHO it IS a soft pedal. Just for grins, find a STOCK NV5600 and push that pedal for comparison. G56 = Self Adjusting Clutch (SAC) and NV5600 traditional diaphragm.



If I was trying to assess the finished job, I would look at the ability to select 1st and REV and how much reserve travel (upward movement) the system has prior to the truck starting to move in gear.



Tony, "However, going with the "not broke, don't fix it" routine for now. " As far as predicting clutch ability and reserve, I think one test could be done a couple of times per year. Uphill acceleration, same road, load, speed, gear, RPM etc, build up some boost, let er rip for a short power up, if it holds, good news but the first time it slips, power down, drive politely and start thinking about a proactive repair rather than an out of state repair.



Tony, can you describe the testing process and your finding after the test and prior to starting to bleed out the bubbles. And this was the first time you have worked on this hydraulic system, it was untouched prior to this and you found bubbles, right?



I haven't been able to figure out how much air in a hydraulic system is a MAXIMUM MISTAKE (R. Patton) but I think you would not be willing to accept any air in your brakes, if you have a bubble, I'd say it was affecting your results.



Sounds like you are ahead compared to replacing the entire system, agree?

 

[MegaTony06]

Tony,



Suggestion, find another STOCK G56 and feel the pedal in that truck. If if it not stock, comparison will be invalid.



I pushed the pedal on a stock G56 with a new factory clutch and yes, IMHO it IS a soft pedal. Just for grins, find a STOCK NV5600 and push that pedal for comparison. G56 = Self Adjusting Clutch (SAC) and NV5600 traditional diaphragm.



If I was trying to assess the finished job, I would look at the ability to select 1st and REV and how much reserve travel (upward movement) the system has prior to the truck starting to move in gear.



Tony, "However, going with the "not broke, don't fix it" routine for now. " As far as predicting clutch ability and reserve, I think one test could be done a couple of times per year. Uphill acceleration, same road, load, speed, gear, RPM etc, build up some boost, let er rip for a short power up, if it holds, good news but the first time it slips, power down, drive politely and start thinking about a proactive repair rather than an out of state repair.

That is exactly what I have been doing to test and isolate the clutch (not just the pedal) to confirm that the pedal (the hydraulics) is the problem.

Tony, can you describe the testing process and your finding after the test and prior to starting to bleed out the bubbles. And this was the first time you have worked on this hydraulic system, it was untouched prior to this and you found bubbles, right?

Yes. First time. Truck is completely stock and I purchased it new in 2007 with 13 miles on the odometer. Never had a reason to mess with the hydraulic pedal assembly other than checking the reservoir during maintenance.



After the initial removal of the hyrdaulics I tested the system and observed at least a 1/2" play at the slave cylinder pushrod and nearly the same at the master cylinder pushrod. Remember, that I found the retention washer in the master cylinder was loose and in the wrong place.



When, implementing the bleeding procedure like in the video I witnessed two large air bubbles (didn't catch them in the pictures... kicks rock)... enough to add approximately 2-3 ounces of new fluid to top off the reservoir. After putting the retention washer in the correct place first.

I haven't been able to figure out how much air in a hydraulic system is a MAXIMUM MISTAKE (R. Patton) but I think you would not be willing to accept any air in your brakes, if you have a bubble, I'd say it was affecting your results.

I agree, very similar to having air in the brake lines. The pedal is firmer and engages much better now than prior to bleeding the hydraulic system. The observed play in the slave pushrod and master pushrod are significantly less than when found and are moving approximately 1/8" to 3/16" before experiencing resistance.

Sounds like you are ahead compared to replacing the entire system, agree?

Yes. Much better... at least a full inch more in the pedal resistance and engaging firmer.



After thinking more about it, the retention washer (master cylinder assembly) being in the incorrect position could have allowed air in the system... otherwise the design of the system would be greatly flawed with the additional plastic pieces in-line upstream of the slave cylinder. I am going with the most simple causes first in my assessment and trying not to overthink it.



The pedal continuing to feel soft is probably more mental now than anything since I am probably overly-sensitive to how it feels compared to the very soft pedal prior to bleeding the system.

 

[GCroyle]

Tony,



I'm trying to identify the part you are calling a RETENTION WASHER and it being out of place. Is the retention washer in this picture?



Thanks for trying the technique, sounds like it was worth a little bit of time on your part to inspect, test and bleed a system that does not have a bleed screw.



Nice job.



Gary

 

[MegaTony06]

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See the small metal retention clip/washer with holes. It is not far enough in, in this picture. Luckily I have the special little pliers that squeeze these little things and it was easy to put further in where it belongs.





Some more pictures of what we are talking about.



Master Cylinder with reservoir (note the dangling connector - that is the safety switch plug):

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To release the safety switch connector slide the orange part of the connector then with a flat tip of a screwdriver ensure that the orange slide is completely out of the way of the nipples on the connector and pull them apart.





Slave cylinder with 45 degree plastic fitting that I don't know what it is or does:

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The plastic fitting does allow the cylinder to rotate freely independent of the hydraulic line.





Reservoir before I started the bleeding process (notice it is not full):

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When performing the procedure from Gary's video, this had two very large bubbles escape through the fluid.

 

[GCroyle]

Tony,



GREAT PIC's.



OK, now we are on the same page, piston assy. retaining ring. I have never seen one out of place like that on these master cylinders. Did you observe any signs of fluid weeping at the retaining ring area?



Q. Didn't you mention that you have the adjustable pedal assy? Any relationship to the situation?



Do you have any theory about the retainer being out of position?



Gary

 

[MegaTony06]

There was some dinginess around the firewall and it didn't occur to me that it was from brake fluid until I realized the ring was not in properly.



I don't know if the adjustable pedals were a factor. It doesn't appear to be as a I ran them max in both directions after re-installing and did not witness any stress on the clutch cylinder piston/pushrod.



The adjustable assembly does not affect the linkages as it has it's own guide. I should take a picture.



As for a theory... nada... I could always blame my wife for riding the clutch though. :-{}:-laf

 

[seafish]

Hey Gary, someone posted that you guys are making an aftermarket clutch hydraulic assembly for our trucks... is it ready to market yet... got pics??? TIA

 

[GCroyle]

seafish,



PM sent, not allowed to solicit, only tech topics.