Clutch Time

[JDancoe]

Looking for opinions & info on clutches. I have two 92 diesels with 5 speed trans.

#1 is a W-250 which I bought new, which has the original clutch- 265K miles.

it has a 13" clutch with cast iron diaphragm type cover, with a lip on the outer edge of the flywheel and a bronze bushing for the pilot bearing.

#2 is a D-250 which I bought used, (I'm 3rd owner). It has a replacement 12 1/4" clutch with stamped steel diaphragm type cover, a flat surface flywheel and a needle bearing pilot bearing. The clutch was replaced just before I bought the truck with "just a good quality O. E. M. equivalent replacement clutch, not anything super special" (previous owner quote).

Both clutches seem to work OK, except for a tendency to shudder when backing up an incline, on #1, the 4WD.

I've been using #2, the 2WD for some heavy hauling with a trailer out of Phoenix and up over Wolf Creek Pass in Colorado, with no problems.

One of the engines will be refitted into a truck with an auto trans, and the other to the 4WD , with a Getrag 5 speed.

Any opinions on why the difference in clutches? Which type/size should be best to re-install or as a new replacement?

Any preference/suggestions on replacement brands or type?

Pilot bearings. I'm partial to the bronze bushing type myself, any experience, good or bad, with these?

Guys, any and all comment or suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks, Jack Dancoe

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

The original clutch was made by Sachs and was expensive compared to the LuK used in later Turbo Diesels. You can retrofit the LuK to the First Generation. The Sachs was indexed by the flywheel lip and the LuK uses small mounting holes with shouldered bolts to index it. Both procedures work. Shuddering can be due to wear on drivetrain/suspension parts but usually is a result of the inexpensive factory facings on the disk. A premium facing with more brass/bronze wire in it generally “scrubs” the iron surfaces of the pressure plate and flywheel so they don't glaze and cause shuddering. A bronze pilot bushing won't damage the transmission input “nose” if it wears, although the bearings in the transmission could be damaged by a severely worn bushing. If alignment is perfect (transmission to engine crankshaft), and if the needle bearing doesn't lose its grease, then the needle bearing is better. South Bend Clutch has a variety of clutches, from stock to premium, and also has heavy duty sealed ball bearing pilot bearings. Call Peter at 800-988-4345.

 

[JDancoe]

Joe, thanks for the info. Do you know, is it necessary to replace the flywheel if I go to a different clutch other than O. E. M. ? My original clutch uses the flywheel with a lip on the outer edge. I don't have the engine output boosted way up, and don't make a practice of abusing my equipment, so I don't think I need some "super" clutch, (i. e. dual disc, etc. ). Jack Dancoe

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

Give Peter at Southbend Clutch a call and discuss you concerns/problems with him. I've found them to be very good at what they do and always willing to help. I just bought a 13" Con-O. It came with a no lip flywheel with a oversized roller pilot bearing that he started using a number of years ago. I had a little trouble with the install - my fault - that was solved with one phone call. With Peter out of the office his staff pointed me in the right direction.



Bob

 

[NIsaacs]

Like Joe said, the 13" Sachs is original for the 1st gen. The 12 1/4 is used as a replacement and is OEM for the 2nd gen. 5spd. the 6spd uses 13" again.



On your swap, I would keep the Sachs. At 250,000 miles I pulled my 91' because I just knew it had to be used up. It was not. I changed the rear main seal and throwout brg. pilot was fine and bolted it back up. At 310,000 all seems well.



Wolf Creek is a fun ride, I have hauled lotsa house logs up and hay back with my Ford.



Nick

 

[JDancoe]

Nic,
Did you have any shudder or shake problems with your Sachs? Especially when backing up an incline, or backing a trailer? That was the major reason I was concerned about mine, on the W-250. As you say, when I got it out, visual inspection did not show severe wear, or signs of excessive excessive heat. The D-250, with the 12 1/4" chinese clutch & flywheel, never had a shudder problem. I was wondering if the shudder on the 4WD might have been suspension induced, but I re-bushed the rear springs and hangers-no difference. I've been wondering if the 6" spacers under the rear springs are creating a torque arm, and if I installed a "lift Kit" spring set and removed the spacers, it might help. Jack Dancoe

 

[NIsaacs]

Yes, on my 91 D250 I get the reverse jump. Like Joe says it might have something to do with the Sachs however it is a tough clutch so I will put up with it. I think some of the problem is due to the mushy motor mounts. If you pop the hood and watch the motor it will flop all over during this reverse hop.



Nick

 

[Paychk]

Yes, on my 91 D250 I get the reverse jump. Like Joe says it might have something to do with the Sachs however it is a tough clutch so I will put up with it. I think some of the problem is due to the mushy motor mounts. If you pop the hood and watch the motor it will flop all over during this reverse hop.



Nick

You may want to jack the motor up and check the mounts for tears, I've replaced 2 sets of mounts in 10 years.

 

[NIsaacs]

Thanks paychk, not a bad idea. It has done this from day one, however at 19 years old it is over due. Any advice on brand? I deal with Napa mostly.



Nick

 

[Paychk]

I don't think there are any of the aftermarket motor mounts that are heads above another. If the OEM are available go with those. The reason for that is the after market type are of a universal style (multiple model applications) and the same exact mount is listed for all v-6, v-8, & Cummins. Also be aware the after market use metric studs and will need new hardware ie nuts & washers.

 

[Grey Wolf]

You could always go with Polyurethane mounts...



Page 11

 

[Paychk]

Found these too:

polyurethane Dodge diesel engine mount

 

[JDancoe]

Actually, I contacted Johnny Spiva about these mounts about 4-6 weeks ago, and he was just starting production. He sent me two sets about two weeks ago, and as soon as I get them installed, I was going to report on them. (probably by the end of August). He also sent me a set of transfer case/transmission mounts for the 4WD, and I wanted a rear mount for a 2WD automatic, which he didn't have. I got an E-mail from him last week that he is working on that mount also. Appearance wise, the mounts look top quality. I'll follow up with more info when the trucks are on the road. Jack Dancoe

 

[NIsaacs]

JD, please let me know how they look and perform. I really like the looks of those mounts. Thanks for the links Paychk & GW.



Nick