Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Cold starting ? for those with unplugged grids.

[Skydiver]

It is cold and getting colder. Just interested in what is the coldest you have cranked your engine with no block heater no grids and no fuel additives. Mine cranked @ 17F in 7 seconds of starter action. I only did this two times as I know the unburned fuel (smoke) is bad for the oil.

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Might try it in the morning as it's going to be 13F forcasted. We only have #2 diesel fuel down here.

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24 valvers feel free to reply.

 

[SRath]

You had better get some fuel additive in there pronto tonto! But you need to drive and slosh mix it well into the fuel, too. Other than that, my '96 will start no matter what if my batteries can get it to crank over at all, and only once have I ever had to jumpstart them in 10 years.

But fuel gelling is a separate issue from engine hard-starting. I don't care what motor you have, you MUST keep your fuel from freezing solid. Changing fuel filters in sub-zero cold and adding Emergency Thaw treatment sucks compared to just being prepared with properly treated fuel.

If it is below zero, and I have not plugged it in, my engine actually turns all the way over, more than once sometimes, before starting. Anything much warmer than that and it just takes a "bump" of the key to start.

BTW: It's supposed to hit 17 BELOW here tonight without factoring in the windchillllllllll...

 

[Gene Heck]

I have had my filter(s) gel up when it was about 5 deg. F out without any fuel additive. I've also changed filters on other trucks stranded along side the road with gelled filters. It's not a lot of fun even though I was getting paid for it. I would suggest getting some kind of additive in your fuel if you think the temp is going lower than 15 deg. As far as the grid heaters go, if your engine is in good condition it should start without any problem at that temp. Don't be afraid to give it a little throttle (about 1/4) when you crank it over and you will find it shouldn't take 7 seconds to start. You will probably be suprised how fast it starts. It's a mechanical pump thing. Then bring the speed up between 750 and 1000 for a few seconds after it starts until it will idle smoothly. Fill in your signature. After it is idling smoothly on it's own if you have an auto you can set the parking brake (if you trust it), chock the wheels and put it in drive to load the engine a little and go back into the house for a quick cup of joe. The smell of the cold unburnt fuel won't hurt anything. Your wife or neighbors might whine a little though if they are close by or the smell follows you back in the house. You will have to do a LOT of idling before this becomes an oil dilution issue. Putting the trans in gear will help the engine warm up a little faster. This how I start mine frequently.



Think spring!



Gene

 

[Skydiver]

Thanks for the fuel additive reminder SRath. Only really needed it 3-4 times in the 10 years I've owned this Dodge. The truck gets driven once every 10 days just to keep the seals lubed or on the late fall when I'm moving the tractor to the hunting land. I keep the tank full most of the time.

Gene, I start the Cummins exactly as you do.

The reason I asked the question pertains to the fact we have a real diesel that starts with ease and the other brands need those silly little glow plug thingys. LOL I normally do plug in the grids when the temps drop below 40F. I am proud of the fact that I can start it in the cold without the aid of heat. My truck fires in the cold in 2 seconds. I just keep the starter running a few extra seconds until all the cylinders are up.

Gene, my signature has been filled out for almost 10 years. Are you seeing other members sigs?

1996 3500 auto-183K,On 11-21-09. K&N air. 18. 2 MPG.

My daily driver is a 96 Regal 3. 8 165k 29. 3 mpg.

Wife's truck 07 Ridgeline.

Other diesels,1987 Ford 2810 about 815 hrs. 1. 25 gph.

07 Kubota ZD326 ztr 0. 70 gph.

 

[SRath]

Skydiver, you do not need to unplug the grid heaters to avoid them cycling in weather where they are not needed.

If you turn the key to "start" before the "wait to start" light goes out, it will bypass the heater grid cycles.

When it is chilly, you can then let the grids do their thing, and they do help.

 

[Skydiver]

I did not know that trick. Thanks. Will this also prevent them from cycling after it cranks?

The reason I don't use them is to prevent the alternator from being taxed. The grid solenoid contacts have stuck closed 3 times causing my ALT or GEN (can't remember which) light to come on and stop charging. Still running the original alt.

I do use them, just not often.

 

[19Kgvw]

First part of October last fall '09 in Montana, the first cold snap from Canada of the season, woke up to 4 degrees Fair..... not plugged in the heater and no fuel additive. That was Judith Gap near Great Falls.
I'd cycled the heating grid twice with the key but didn't want to loose the battery. It was the coldest for me and the old 1st gen protested..... took at least 7-8 minutes to run smoothly..... had never heard it run that bad for so long.

 

[Gene Heck]

Skydiver



You're right about your signature appearing below your text. I looked a couple of times last night and was sure I didn't see it. Sorry about that. Yes, starting mine the way I described it will start in just a second or two. If I know I'm going to drive it the next day and temps are going to be less than 40 then I plug it in for convenience. I have a timer set to turn on the block heater for about an hour or two before I leave for work. However if I need it right now I know it will start with out any issues without the need for the block heater. Something you said though, don't get the block heater and the intake heater grids confused as they are two different things. The (engine) block heater behind the oil filter in the block warms the coolant to knock the chill out of the cylinders and head and lets the temp created by the compression burn the fuel instead of trying to heat cold metal. The intake grid heaters warm the incoming air to help offset the chill in the cylinders incase the block heater isn't used and it is really cold.



A much better system than the days when we had to use ether (or some guys used a gas soaked rag) in front of the intake or some kind of external heat source putting heat against the engine to break the chill to try to get it to start. Some cussing was usually thrown in for good measure too.



As SRath stated you can skip the preheat of the grids if you crank the engine anytime before the wait to start light goes out. This is called the preheat cycle. But even if you skip the preheat cycle as soon the engine starts and the PCM sees the rpm go above 475 and the intake air temp sensor (IAT) is less than 59 it will go into the post heat cycle for up to 3 1/2 minutes. If the engine stalls or if you start driving it faster than 10 mph the PCM will turn off the post heat cycle.



A question if any one knows, what temp does unwinterized ULSD gel at?



Gene

 

[Skydiver]

Gene thanks for the reply. I'm purdy knowledgeable on diesels. Never pulled or rebuilt an injection pump, but I have set around a dozen clutches in front of an Eaton or Fuller.



I bought my first NEW diesel when I was 19 and it fell apart. Second NEW diesel when I was 21 and wished I still had that little Rabbit. I bought an 81 low mile Mercedes 300D in 91 and it was hell to crank if one glow plug failed. I found out that a 1500 watt hair dryer worked wonders.

 

[Gene Heck]

Skydiver,



That's cool, I thought you probably were knowledgeable from looking at your list of stuff in your sig. But you never know, sometimes a little tip gets in there that wasn't thought about or realized before. I'm always happy if I can learn something new.



As far as the MB's go, I have a 99 E300TD (6 cyl) with glowplugs and I had one fail a couple of years ago, in winter of course. It would start okay with 5 glowplugs working but with the one cylinder "dead" from having the one prechamber cold it sounded and shook like crap for a few minutes. Matter of fact it doesn't like to idle cold to long. About 30 seconds warmup is good, stick it in gear and go. I've never tried it but I'm pretty sure that thing wouldn't start after cooling off overnight with the glowplug controller disabled unless it was the hottest night times of summer which are 70 to 75 deg nights around here.



Your right about those old diesel Rabbits, they rocked.



Gene











Gene

 

[BDaugherty]

A question if any one knows, what temp does unwinterized ULSD gel at?



Gene



"... temperature can vary with different batches of fuel. This past winter we saw this problem at between 5°F and 10°F. "



Taken from:

ULSD Cold Weather Information

 

[Skydiver]

You did the right thing by posting more info than needed. Other members as myself will gather info.

In 1984 I was talking to a shop owner who specialized in VW called Bug. He told me of a story about an Auburn Co-Ed who hit a large curb and dented the oil pan so bad it knocked off the oil pump pick up tube. She drove it home from Columbus Ga. to Auburn Al with NO oil pressure. The following morning she called Bug. He listened and decided that since she drove it 30 miles that there must not be any real problem. Sure enough NO oil pressure when she arrived. The pan was not leaking but was badly dented. He said the splash must have saved the rings and mains, but the cam bearings did get too hot. Talk about a tough engine. 52 horse power and 43 mpgs, often more. Bring back the good ole days.

 

[Gene Heck]

Thanks BDaugherty,



I didn't now for sure what the new straight #2 unwinterized ULSD would gel at temp wise now, that's why I suggested adding some fuel treatment below 15 deg. to Skydiver especially down where he's at they probably don't add any at the distributor like up here in the rust belt.



I still use it in all my stuff just as a precaution because you never really know what's coming out of the pump. A few oz. of prevention is worth a pound of cure if you know what I mean.



It's no fun standing alongside a busy road trying to get any machine to go and not get run over in the meantime. Been there, done that.



Gene

 

[Gene Arnold]

Skydiver,



If you'll pardon an old guy's input, as I read your post I was reminded of something that happened to me.



Back in the “dark ages” (about 1970) I had an experience with gelled fuel in my MB 220D during an emergency trip when the temp was well below zero. It turned out OK, but could have been tragic as I had my three little kids and my wife with me. A few days before the event I had a conversation with a traveling salesman who also drove a Mercedes diesel. He told me of problems he had in northern Nebraska when the fuel in his car gelled. The placement of the fuel filter on these cars was a big part of the problem as it was mounted right downstream from the engine cooling fan where the full effect of the frigid air would work its woe. The salesman told of restarting the car, driving a very short distance when it would again die, then he'd repeat the process until he finally limped in to the nearest town. The reason he could do this was that when the engine died the residual heat of the engine warmed the filter, thus thawing the fuel in it enough to allow the engine to restart. He then could run a short distance until the cold air again cooled the filter. I was sure this was the problem with our car.



You need to know I have a praying wife who will pray about anything at the drop of a hat, and when I pulled on to the shoulder, got out the sleeping bags (you never travel in cold climates without a cold weather emergency kit) she began to pray about the problem. Well, once Bert decides to have faith for something she's hard to dissuade, so at her insistence I tried to start it. That it started was no surprise to this oft times skeptical guy, but that it kept going all the way to Grand Island (about 50 miles) was not a coincidence! Thank God for a praying wife!



Any how, our trucks shouldn't have as bad a problem as that MB since our fuel filters are not located as I described above.

 

[fest3er]

... The reason he could do this was that when the engine died the residual heat of the engine warmed the filter, thus thawing the fuel in it enough to allow the engine to restart. He then could run a short distance until the cold air again cooled the filter. ...

This exact thing happend to my truck when I was in Ill. a few years ago. Drive 1/4 mile, pull over and die. Repeat. Slow down to 30MPH and make it 1/2 mile. Kept going until I found some place with anti-gel. Of course, by the time I poured it in, the ambient temp was high enough so it wasn't gelling any more anyway.



This is the ragged edge of gelling. A dose of normal anti-gel should cure it lickety-split. If the fuel in the tank has recently started to gel, a dose of emergency thaw may do the trick. If the truck sat over night and all the fuel is frozen and it's -10F, yer on yer own.

 

[Skydiver]

Thanks Mr. Arnold. You can pray all you want in my presence. Prayer is about all we have left in this country. Bless you.

Old guy? I'll be 50 in March.

IN 1991 my 3rd diesel was a Light Blue 1972 220d. I paid $2000 for it in Atlanta Ga. It was advertised with 86k miles and I thought I found my low mile dream car. As I went over the old paper work I found where the odometer had rolled over. The guy still would not budge off the $2000. I liked the 3 position knob. It had 3-volt glow plugs, LOL Mine would not start when hot. The solenoid had a problem. I even beefed up the signal (control) wires. That was OK, just park it on a hill and it could be pushed off, which is rare.

Sold it to my cousin and his daughter wrecked it.

 

[tgordon]

Have had a John Deere 4850 with #1 summer blend gel at about 35-40. Running B20 I had my fuel in the truck start to crystalize at about-14, after the engine heated up and thawed out the filter no troubles at all. One of the advantages of having the filter in back under the hood with all the heat.