College reneigs on financial aid--anyone ever heard of this?

[daveshoe]

My daughter is very fortunate in that she had two combined packages that were ''full ride'' when academic scholarships and athletic scholarships were combined. She even got an unsolicited offer for a full athletic scholarship at a large university. We became somewhat concerned visiting some of these schools when we saw the extent of ice being used on the athletes to keep them performing,and wondered what long term health problems she might encounter from performing as an athletic scholarship receipient.

We then explored private colleges based on academic scholarship status alone and found that she had what it took to go to a private school for four years for the price of a used Cummins Dodge. We did not decide on a final choice until April ,and two weeks after we accepted, all heck broke loose from financial aid. After trying to satisfy all kinds of requests,it became evident that they were attempting to discourage us from attending their university. The way this was accomplished was to intrepret our financial profile in the most negative way possible. This was worse that a tax audit. What was really disturbing to us was that these people changed our loan and grant package from the Dept of Education [by changing our net worth status without any documentation] and this affected aid from other schools as well--eventually all was restored by the other schools, but only after we presented additional records to them.

The only motivation that I can see for this is that the first choice institution was filled to capacity when we accepted their financial package. I wonder if the Financial aid officer was told to be a ''rainmaker'' by the administrators of the college. With 60 students over capacity, If they could make us and twenty other families like us go away and find replacements with no university scholarships, it would amount to a million dollars savings to the college.

After all the paperwork arrived from this college and the one she is finally attending, my daughter is going to save at least 20 grand by saying good bye to her first choice college. I just wonder if anyone else has been bent over like this by this bait and switch approach. I have heard of it many times in awarding athletic scholarships, but never for academic scholarships.

 

[Alan Reagan]

The financial aid office at the college probably was not doing their homework in a timely manner. By delaying their work, proper coordination was not done with the admissions department, resulting in the last minute requests to you.



There is probably some truth to what you are saying about bait and switch. I would tend to believe it is more like an overbooking situation that the airlines do. They want to ensure they are operating at capacity and sometimes it happens that too many students want to go there. Your daughter probably falls into that category. Is it intentional that she get screwed over. Probably not. It is more like the result of poor management at the financial aid office.

 

[Digger-Bear]

I am a departmental chairman of a university program in Kentucky. It sounds to me like someone may have screwed up in processing paperwork and are trying a “CYA”. If you have a signed document or letter awarding/offering you the money you will be in a much better situation. We are over capacity and still accepting a few late comers…



Its not their money. I don’t know which school you are talking about but, it really is to the universities benefit to hand out scholarships. Money comes to them, via scholarships and grants, through federal, state, and internal lines. If the money isn’t handed out, they don’t get it. Time is running short, school is starting, without knowing your specifics, I think a calm, well thought out face to face with the head financial decision maker would work wonders.



Best of luck.

 

[daveshoe]

We tried the face to face meeting, but it simply amounted to an underling ''listening'' to our concerns, restating their flawed position, and telling us that a final decision by the head guy would be forthcoming in two weeks. Of course,he was out of town. Two weeks was really their way of saying screw you in that there was no way to get another college on board in that length of time.

Even though we had previously gotten verbal assurances from another institution,we took all of our documents to this second school, and fully revealed the position of the first college and their reasoning [declaring our residence as an asset] that so inflated our net worth. The financial aid office of the second college was amazed at the intrepretation the first college had of our finances. Later,a third college agreed with the second. My main concern in revealing all this ''damaging ''information to the other colleges is that I did not want to be looked at as trying to hide something, or worse yet,having to later pay back awarded monies due to improper reporting of income or assets.

I am going to state absolutely that the first college financial aid office was very hostile to us. It was either due to a personality conflict or the fact that they thought that we were trying to hide something. Our ace in the hole was that our daughter had enrolled in both colleges and we had paid a deposit at the second choice school to hold the offer open. If we had not done this ,our choices would have been an athletic scholarship or community college.

We still are stunned at the amount of help and scholarships the second college gave us. Our daughter plans to pay them back by breaking some track records this year,and who knows,possibly qualifying for nationals.

 

[Digger-Bear]

One of the academic traditions is to "close ranks". Not saying its right, it is how it is. If one person is challenged, their peers will back their play. Sounds like that is what happened.



If the head person was not in (read: the final-final decision was not made) and you did not get satisfaction, before he gets back, talk, preferably in person with documentation, to either (first choice) the Provost (essentially the vice president) or the (second choice) Ombudsman (essentially the “fix-it” person). Play the “injured innocence” card – you show righteous indignation mixed with a bit of hurt feelings, daughter should be on the verge of tears. The Provost (the boss of the decision makers boss) won’t make the decision but he will send all of the information downstream to the decision maker with a note saying “what the hell” and “deal with it”. The decision maker will be caught flatfooted and normally will do what he is told. Unless they all decide to close ranks.



What town is the school in? I may have a few contacts.



I know, it’s a smarmy world, and a pisser of a situation but its where I live….



Again, best of luck - this has to be frustrating.

 

[JPope]

Imagine how the school that is giving the 'flawed' position statement now, may treat you each year in the future if your daughter goes there. You could end up with this 'flawed' logic discussion each year or the reclassification arguement coming up again. Maybe you are ahead 'learning' how the school operates before your daughter gets there.



As the saying goes "been there, done that" and wish we had known from the beginning . Amazing some of the stories you here from various parents, and there higher education financing experiences with various schools all over the country.



Our personal ?favorite? was after our son had graduated, but before he had received his diploma, was reclassifing him as not fullfilling graduation requirements because one of the required classes had been newly reclassified as a duplicate to a previous class, therefore he needed one more class! He was offered the chance to take it during summer school (at our expense!!, and at non full time student rates, e. g. much much higher!!!!, because he was no longer a fulltime student Shall we say, there was much discussion :-laf, and though he had to take the course, and even his academic advisor said it was baloney, it was done at full-time student rates, though we had to pay for it, as his scholarship had ended :{. The president of the school interceded and got him in the summer school class (we were advised that the class was full, because of !!!our!!! delays in enrolling him).

It is now done and he is out in the world, teaching now, and shall we say, he gives parents of his students cautions about this particiular school, schools in general, and what could occur. And our story is pretty mild compared to some of the financial stories we have heard from others.



Good Luck, and get it in writing, from a school officer!!!!!!

 

[skobylenski]

Being in college right now, here's my take on all this stuff... they try their hardest to screw you out of as muh money as they possibly can. When they break out the crap that they don't have money to give, or that your financial situation is less than ideal, remind them that they DO, infact, have the money, and that your financial situation is good enough for them to be talking to you. Be firm, they're used to people being push-overs and taking what they are offered. If you want more, push for it, and 9 times out of 10, you'll get most, if not all, of what you want. Also, parents are the ONLY people who get through to administrators. NOBODY in ANY position of power will even consider listening to students, since we're all "stupid" and "24/7 party-ers" who don't have a clue about anything. And how do they expect us to go out on our own after we graduate if we can't negotiate with people on a scale as small as college financial, housing, registrars, etc... .



Back to what I was saying... . arrange a meeting with the head of the financial department when YOU want to meet him, not when it's convenient for him/her. When you do meet with him/her, push until you get what you want. Once you're gotten to this point, you're not done mom and dad, next is support for the next 4 years. If your student needs something, let them try first, but when they call to tell you they got nowhere with the department they were dealing with, bring in the big guns first. Remember, you're paying thousands of dollars a year for your child to be educated, the school owes you something in return, like keeping things such as straightening out screwed up classes, or fixing a less than pleasant housing situation, simple.



Can you tell college administration really annoys me?

 

[daveshoe]

I am learning a lot from you guys.

Please keep posting your experiences. This matter is nearing resolution. there are bits and pieces of every post that apply to our situation. I will tell you how it all comes out later if there seems to be interest. To say that this has been frustrating is an understatement. Our family has spent at least 300 hours filling out forms and on the internet and travelled 1200 miles for all the interview and testing--just visiting schools in a two hour radius.

Digger, the school is in Columbus,OH area [not OSU]

 

[Digger-Bear]

Skobylenski, I sure hope you never walk into my office with that head of steam. You would be spun around and frozen out faster than you could say Skobylenski!



First of all faculty have very little say, or even knowledge, of how the administration operates. It is very common to see great teachers and researchers hobbled by bean-brained pencil-pushers. Please don’t judge the faculty by the paperwork they are surrounded by – they hate it also!



Second, it’s not their money, “screwing” people out of a few dollars does them no good. They get paid the same, their budget lines won’t change, their evaluations wont vary. Most of them are trying to help in a system that is both overwhelming and in flux. They feel even more frustrated than you. Almost all students nowadays are on some sort of assistance, They all want their cases to be evaluated in a good light and the reviewers have heard it all before… Don’t take it personally, you need to find a way to make the system work on your own behalf.



Third, they are human. If a person – student or otherwise – walks into an office acting like a four cornered bunghole, they will definitely be treated like one. If you approach the person with facts, an attitude of a shared problem, and a positive attitude (that means smile), you will work wonders. If you act like you really appreciate their efforts, you will go far. During my first six at my current position, I embarrassed the heck out of my predecessor (who liked to throw his weight around) by generating over half a millions dollars of developmental funds - doing just that. Smile, easy laugh, and a kind word – even if you want to strangle the SOB.



Fourth (please don’t take this personal daveshoe, I even advised you to jump in due to time constraints), parents and lawyers are the last recourse of the incompetent. When parents dive into the fray, it tells me the student wants to be treated as a child. If they can’t solve their own problems, they have to run and get a grown up. It is an indicator the student has a low perception of themselves and (in your own words) perceive themselves as “stupid" and "24/7 party-er" who has no a clue about anything. Most of the students in my program are far from that!



Fifth, the school owes you nothing. The student is paying for classes, some services, and limited use of facilities. Their contract ends there. Faculty and administration all feel this is our home and students are passing through. Be respectful of our home. Good advisement, encouragement, hallway discussions, running down problems, overloading their classes, a smile – we do that because we like our jobs and students. I actually had a kid tell me this summer, she was paying my salary and I had to override her into a series of classes because she deemed it would happen. What she didn’t know was I had put in a series of calls to help her out already, when I got that type of lip, I definitely downshifted my efforts… Karma will out.



Finally, being chair of a large program, I can guarantee you will find a lot of jerks in administration. Trust me, the government has no monopoly on monkey-heads. They abound in private business as well. Many people won’t or can’t do their jobs. Some people are just mean spirited. If you find you can’t work with someone, go higher – this is why I suggested daveshoe go to the Provost. Just remember it is always about one human talking to another human and you will go far!



Daveshoe, if the school name begins with an “O”, my little sister (little, she’s pushing 50) went there and had a great experience. It is a small school, at least by OSU standards and very gossipy. Even more reason to take a relaxing breath, tread firmly, and lightly. Go to the Provost… Best of luck and let us know how it plays out.

 

[daveshoe]

A very thoughtful post,Digger. I agree with your point as well,JPope I think we probably did everything we could in the way of progressing up the food chain. My only disagreement is that the scholarship and institutional grant Katie received was probably ''their money'' at least ,it was available for use to others if we left. We were strongly encouraged to apply for these private schools by the coaching staff. I doubt we would have ever considered we could grab these size awards without their encouragement. If I did anything to act like a four cornered bunghole. it was when all these requests for additional paperwork started. I mentioned that it would be very upsetting to our family if the award was reduced. We had turned down a full ride scholarship not 10 days before and when we electronically accepted their award ,it was about all we could afford at the original level. I told them we really needed to know where we stood so that we could find another opportunity if need be. That kicked the matter to the director of financial aid. We had a phone conversationin which he seemed to imply that there were inconsistencies in our properties reported on the tax return vs. the FASFA. That was not true-- probably a ''stresser'' inserted into the conversation He said additional verification on the value of reported real estate[rentals] holdings would be necessary. We finally agreed that since the bank had appraised the properties when the loans were made, they could state the values without a new appraisal. [later ,when we met with the bank,he said they had never heard of such a request by a college]

His next question is what made the whole thing come apart. He remarked that the [low] interest rate that we had on our rentals did not seem to support the amount of debt we owed on them. We had previously refinanced our property and used our residence as additional collateral to get a good interest rate, but we did not convert any money to personal use. The director said that this was improper ,and he disallowed the debt on our real estate investments. He even disallowed a subsequent loan that was taken on a new acquisition of 54000 dollars that happened AFTER the refinance. WHY? because he heard what he wanted to believe over the telephone and the documentation would hurt his case. We later showed them a copy of the mortgage and still there was no change. Our ''Expected Family Contribution'' as reported by FASFA increased by 4500 dollars a year. As you can imagine, we thought at this point that all the other colleges [6 in all] would reduce their awards. The worst thing about this was we had no clue it was coming. we only found out about it when the new Department of Education Student Aid Report arrived five days later.

After just about going nuts , we found a a friend at another college when I spoke to the Assistant Finaid Director. She calmly explained to me that a financial aid director has the authority to take ''Professional Judgements'' and that they cannot be appealed to the Department of Education. I will never forget her question to me-- '' Are you saying that he imputed these figures based on a telephone conversation? -- Well, I guess I can do the same thing--Your financial package still stands. '' Katie and I met with her a week later,and I showed her the letter from the first college that stated''although we discussed earlier in our conversation about the documentation necessary to affirm your real estate debt,we suggest you not take the time to do this'' We showed her everyting --good and bad that was presented to the first school. Even though this might have seemed risky,I certainly did not want to be in trouble for incomplete reporting to the feds and have to pay them back later.

We had a signed letter by her [the second college] in a week that stated in part''reguardless of the changes made by other instutions, your package offered March 30 will remain in force''

Meanwhile, the coach from the first college was pulling his hair out to try to get our situation improved, We took a meeting with the director of enrollment management,but were seen by the assistant financial aid director when we entered the building. She asked the receptionist,right in front of us 'Who do they want to see/ what is this about? It was all i could do to hold my tongue. She waited for him to greet us ,and she just stared him down as he came out of his office. This guy was so shaken up that he could hardly read our documents,as he was shaking so much. After that waste of time,we took the nuclear option . We documented the whole sorry affair,and even had our accountant cite the specific law that prooved our case that the debt on our real estate should be used as a basis to determine the package. All this information was included in a letter to the President of the unuversity. Before we sent it, Katie edited it herself and we had a long discussion that sending this letter would make her some permanent enemies and subject us to the same treatment for three more years. She sent it anyway. The reply was about what I expected. ''Gee,college is expensive. I do not understand every aspect of financial aid,but we have given this matter every consideration. Hope to see you in the fall''

You will see her all right-- She will be the one in FRONT of all the runners on your track team!

The point of this thread ,and all your helpful replies is,did the college do this to save money? All I know is,when we went away, over 50 grand in institutional grants and scholarships was still there. Was he out to get us because we mentioned we had other offers?Did the coach make them angry?At some point,it became obvious that these people enjoyed what they were doing. At this point, I do not care any more. The only thing I have to ''admire'' is the fact that the financial aid derector was able to screw us in to the ground the way he did,and he was almost able to affect our package at other institutions as well.

The most important thing that finally happened is that Katie has really matured from this whole situation. She stepped up and applied for community based scholarships,tested for additional scholarships at university,broke four school records in athletics ,and put up with the disappointment caused by this. At the end of the whole ordeal, she is now convinced this school is a better fit for her than the first choice.

 

[JPope]

"... At the end of the whole ordeal, she is now convinced this school is a better fit for her than the first choice. "



Now that is important!!!!!

And she has had more experience, education than some of her courses may ever teach her!!! Even turned a negative into a positive!!!!



Good luck with her track career, her education!!!

 

[Digger-Bear]

Got your posts, sounds like a win to me.



Hopefully one of the lessons learned is: never hand them a stick to hit you with -- the less info they have on you the better!



Best of luck