Comments on Warranty from Banks

[PeterT]

In a recent thread entitled “Banks Talks Back”, some questions regarding warranty were raised, primarily by Bill Kondolay. Mr. Kondolay, thank you for pointing out that one portion of our website had an outdated statement regarding warranty. That statement has been changed to read:



“Banks Power systems and Banks Brake systems are designed to conform to vehicles operated within maximum load specifications. All applicable Banks systems are emissions-tested and certified in 50 states. Under federal law, vehicle manufacturers, dealers or agents cannot void vehicle powertrain or emissions warranties due to the presence of a properly installed Banks system. ”



Gale Banks Engineering always has, and will continue to assist customers who face warranty issues that involve Banks product.



Since the posting of “Banks Talks Back” and the earlier one making comments about problems with Banks customer service, NOT ONE Banks customer has taken the opportunity to contact us with their specific problem or concern. This leads us to believe that these “complaints” must be trumped up by our competitors. The offer still stands; if you have a legitimate concern with a Banks product, you can e-mail myself or Colin Banks, our Sales Manager, or contact our Technical Service Department toll-free at (888) 839-2700.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Peter,

The warranty cannot be voided due to the PRESENCE of the Banks (or any other aftermarket equiptment). The warranty can be voided if the Banks equiptment caused or was a contributing cause to the failure - correct? Unless Banks is working with the mfgs of all the vehicles that you offer products for I don't see how any Banks components are verified to NOT EXCEED the design parameters of any given component - ie NV4500 450ft*lbs. My engine is rated at 235/460 and I'm pretty sure DC is going to cry foul if I bring in my NV5600 with a broken input shaft and I have one of your Power Packs on board.



Can you offer any clarification on this?



Thanks,

Brian

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Peter,



Your post confuses me. Do the Banks power enhancements increase hp and torque above factory specifications? Yes? or No?, plain English so i can understand.



If yes, does that void the manufactures warranty?

If so why would the factory warranty something that is beyond their warranty specifications.



If no, why would i waste my money if a properly installed system does not increase hp or torque above factory specifications?



While most of the TDR members are aware of what happens to their automatic transmissions and clutches on the standards when they add these power mods these are not the customers i am discussing.



The ones i am fighting for are the non-members who simply believed the ads.



Now as for me being a competitor, yes i am, as i also sell power enhancements and exhaust brakes. That is where our similarities end.



Our customers are told up front that their power enhancements will void manufactures warranty. Increasing hp and torque is going to cause negative impact on the drive train.

Should they happen to break they must be fully prepared to pay for the bill out of their own pocket.



I do not mince words or imply by literature or advertising that the manufactures will honor the warranty even though the customer did power enhancements. Most of the tdr membership is aware of Chrysler’s policy on warranty after power mods.



When I sell exhaust brakes to my customers with automatics i tell them it is going cause more wear on the transmission than if they did not have one. However i know that some of them need the brake for safety applications. They understand they are choosing safety over durability.



Here’s another one for you, i also tell my customers that in 1999 Chrysler was buying back exhaust brakes that were offered as a factory option from customers with an automatics and paying for the labor to remove the brake as well . This was a $1400 cost to Chrysler per truck, even though many of the trucks were off manufactures warranty, they paid.



Peter, why do suppose that was?



Keeping the above in mind are you saying that a properly installed Banks exhaust brake when released for the automatics will not void the Chrysler transmission warranty on the automatic?



I am sure we are fortunate that your website is now corrected, my question still remains, is Banks going to pay for the transmission damage caused by the power enhancements because Chrysler denies warranty? Not assist in, or give a guy a copy of the Magnus-Moss act. You see sir i have names, of Banks customers that have had to pay the price.



I don’t need charity or assistance, i need to know if you are going to pay them, i will submit their names and the amounts it cost them however you want, i will post them publicly on this forum as they are real people and not trumped up i believe the term was.



Even now, you still imply that a properly installed Banks system will not void the Mfg. Warranty.

 

[Cooker]

I have yet to commment on any of these Banks threads, but I am very curious about this warranty "issue".



In my opinioin it seems very logical to me that DC would tell you to get lost on a warranty claim related to the engine or drivetrain if they seen your truck has Banks (or any other manufacturer for that matter) power enhancements on the truck.



The increase in power obviously increases the stress on the transmission (manual or automatic), transfer case, axles, driveshafts, and any other part of the truck used to propel it. DC is not stupid. They know increased power increases stress, especially on a automatic, that's what the auto's produce less horsepower from the manufacturer than an automatic. That's one reason why the motors are so detuned in a Dodge pickup compared to other applications of the engine.



I am curious to hear the end result of this discussion. I am not a Banks supporter, nor am I an opponent, but an interested consumer.



Thanks to all parties contributing to this thread to participate in the TDR.



Ryan

 

[HDH]

Originally posted by PeterT

In a recent thread entitled “Banks Talks Back”, some questions regarding warranty were raised, primarily by Bill Kondolay. Mr. Kondolay, thank you for pointing out that one portion of our website had an outdated statement regarding warranty. That statement has been changed to read:



“Banks Power systems and Banks Brake systems are designed to conform to vehicles operated within maximum load specifications. All applicable Banks systems are emissions-tested and certified in 50 states. Under federal law, vehicle manufacturers, dealers or agents cannot void vehicle powertrain or emissions warranties due to the presence of a properly installed Banks system. ”



Gale Banks Engineering always has, and will continue to assist customers who face warranty issues that involve Banks product.



Since the posting of “Banks Talks Back” and the earlier one making comments about problems with Banks customer service, NOT ONE Banks customer has taken the opportunity to contact us with their specific problem or concern. This leads us to believe that these “complaints” must be trumped up by our competitors. The offer still stands; if you have a legitimate concern with a Banks product, you can e-mail myself or Colin Banks, our Sales Manager, or contact our Technical Service Department toll-free at (888) 839-2700.

Maybe the reason not one TDR Member has Contacted you Is because your Products are not what the Majority of the TDR Membership Have?... IMO, Banks = "Not much Bang for the Buck"

Doug.

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by PeterT

Since the posting of “Banks Talks Back” and the earlier one making comments about problems with Banks customer service, NOT ONE Banks customer has taken the opportunity to contact us with their specific problem or concern. This leads us to believe that these “complaints” must be trumped up by our competitors. The offer still stands; if you have a legitimate concern with a Banks product, you can e-mail myself or Colin Banks, our Sales Manager, or contact our Technical Service Department toll-free at (888) 839-2700.

I didn't contact you specifically because I wanted to see if it was a "normal" everyday thing. I didn't want any type of special treatment just because I was a TDR member. My main gripe was a customer service issue I had from 1 ½ years ago. This time around was a much different experience then last time, and much improved. Will I buy a Banks kit now? no, its not for me, not enough power for my tasted, there are other alternatives out there which is usually my main point of posting on Banks threads. I am not a competitor, nor do i care if people buy Banks and like them, I just feel people should have the right to make an educated descion on such matters, most people new tot he Diesel World only have heard of Banks due to the advertising in magazines. but my "claim" was legitmate and not "trumped" up. Its upto the consumer to decide which route they wish to take. I did however just pick up a High Ram Intake (see post in Talks Back thread). Now at least I can mention them without worrying about the customer service level, I just hope it stays that way for the benifit of everyone. I'll "test" the theory from time to time just to verify its for real and wasn't a one time experience.



I think you should post more often PeterT least its nice to have you posting, and would be nice to see the other members of the Banks organization posting too.

 

[PeterT]

Brian,

The manufacturer does retain the right to deny warranty if a proper causal analysis shows that any aftermarket product has contributed to a problem or failure. Our assurance of not exceeding the design tolerances of the vehicle drivetrain comes from testing, testing, testing. Our ultimate product is actually somewhat conservative in terms of transmission capability. In other words, we usually test up to and beyond the actual failure points of the drivetrain, and market our product well below those levels. We will usually reach a point of limitation in the exhaust gas temperature well before the transmission is in jeopardy.



For the record, we have never had an input shaft failure, and we have tested up to about 1000 ft/lbs at the flywheel (this is obviously beyond the slippage point of a stock clutch).



There is MUCH more that could be said in an educational manner about our test methods and our approach to product development, but to do it here would be lengthy and difficult. Watch for us to post more info in the near future though, with links to our website. We intend to write much more to satisfy some of the appetites that have been aroused here regarding warranty, testing methods, and systems engineering.



Mr. Kondolay,

You raised a few issues in your last post on this thread. They will all be addressed, but I will limit this reply to the gauntlet you have thrown:

You see sir i have names, of Banks customers that have had to pay the price.



I don’t need charity or assistance, i need to know if you are going to pay them, i will submit their names and the amounts it cost them however you want, i will post them publicly on this forum as they are real people and not trumped up i believe the term was.

Really? And just when did these nameless customers appoint you as their mouthpiece? Funny if they haven't contacted Banks directly, which would be the rational approach. Well, so be it … Bring it on:



In addition to their names and contact info, kindly supply the following data:

Vehicle year, make and model

Transmission

Banks product installed

Date of installation of Banks product

Other aftermarket products present

Date of failure

Nature of failure

Causal analysis protocol

Causal analysis results



Bill, your antagonism toward Banks is evident, yet inexplicable. You've had no business with us as a customer or dealer, yet you are very invested in being real disgruntled about anything to do with Banks. I am not about to get into a discussion-board volley that's personal. That being said, I will report the outcome of all claims forwarded by you on these boards.

 

[Bob Wagner]

one word of advice...

Peter if you choose to take Bill's challenge then you better be prepared to go the distance.



Bill has one hell of a backbone and that I admire

 

[MikeR]

I don't care how much stress testing and research an aftermaket manufacturer does to an engine or transmission made by another company. The original manufacturer rated and advertised it for XX amount of power and that's that! They can deny you for taking it above their rating. The OEM's don't have to keep a warranty for some aftermarket company's claim.

 

[Tom W]

Peter, I am one of Bill's customers and let me tell you my story.

I am happy with my Banks Stinger plus but I have had some problems. My TC clutch began slipping within 500 miles after the installation of the Banks system ( the only mod at that time). After 1000 miles towing a 5th wheel I could not maintain 60 mph on level highway without slippage. At the time I was not a member of TDR and had very little knowledge of what was happening. I took my truck to the Dodge dealer and after a week of diagnosis they denied extended warranty coverage because the truck had been modified. This was at approximately 47K miles. I contacted Banks several times and all I got was copies of the Magneson (sp) act and assurance that they couldn't cancel my warranty. Well, what was I supposed to do? Sue? I couildn't in good consious do that because I knew in my heart that the Banks system did in fact contribute to the clutch slippage.

I then found the TDR and learned a lot. The most important to me was that Bill Kondolay was the man that could fix my transmission so that it's performance far exceeded the original transmission.

I hold no ill will toward Banks since I ended up with a much better transmission than I had originally. I do think you would have served me better if you had warned me that this failure was a possibility.

I am now adding more mods to further increase the power of my truck but I know that if something breaks it is my responsibility. I think you have a good product and I think you would be wise to heed Bill K's advice and be more upfront about the effect of power mods on warrantys. My extended warranty specifically states that "Trucks that have been modified are not eligible for coverage". I know that now and it's my fault that I didn't read it more carefully.



Tom Wolfe

 

[Mopar-muscle]

pouring more gas on the fire ....

Peter T , the point of this DC warranty denial is this , they will deny your warranty if they want , and they DO ... . now you have 2 choices , pay to fix it knowing it was your fault and its the RIGHT thing to do ... ducking bill's arrow on that one ... or either A) , tow your broken truck home , or B) leave it on their lot acurring storage charges , and contact a lawyer , attempt to use the MM act and hope to have your vehicle fixed within the next 6 months , thats's if you win ...



what DC is banking on is the second part , that the owner can't not have their vehicle fixed and just pays the 5 screw dealer to do it ... the MM act is a smoke screen and a farse , lawyers came up with it , and lawyers make it useless in court ... who's the wiser one ????



my only complaint with Banks Power is what i stated above ... . and you know very well it happens EVERY day , you guys just laugh and send out the copy of the MM act hoping the customer just goes away ...



John Wenetta

 

[Sky]

Originally posted by Tom W

I contacted Banks several times and all I got was copies of the Magneson (sp) act and assurance that they couldn't cancel my warranty.



Tom Wolfe

See that to me is not customer service. I can get copies of the MM Act anywhere. Its sad that you couldnt even talk to anyone at banks about this. This is called blowing your customer off, and hopeing that they will go away, IMO.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Tom W - just curious, how much does your 5th wheel weigh as you tow (loaded)?



PeterT - I was just using the input shaft as an example. I have not heard of any broken input shafts.



Brian

 

[Tom W]

NVR FNSH, My truck and 5th wheel grossed at 19K. I recently sold the 5th wheel and will not be towing in the future.

With the Banks and the original transmission I could not utilize the additional power until the TC locked up. This. as I now know, was very hard on the TC. If I had installed a DTT vb with the Banks it probably would have prevented the TC clutches from slipping but still would not have provided the improved acceleration that comes with the DTT tc.

Let me say once again. The Banks system with the DTT mods give one fine towing machine. I have had about 15000 miles towing and 25000 miles empty since getting the transmission fixed and not a bit of trouble with the Banks or DTT.



Tom wolfe

 

[PeterT]

First, one correction. We have tested up to 1000 lb/ft at the rear wheels, not at the flywheel. Those tests were run on a chassis dyno.



Mr. Wolfe,

There are a couple of points of clarification that will be helpful. First of all, when I speak of warranty coverage, I am only referring to the original manufacturer’s warranty. (At 47K, you are beyond the 3-year/36,000 mile manufacturer warranty coverage. ) Extended warranties are not the same kind of animal, and CAN have exclusion statements. My best advice would be to read the language in the extended warranty very carefully to find out exactly what it says about coverage. If the statement that you quoted is verbatim, then it would seem they have the grounds to deny coverage.



But there is another issue. You stated that you had a gross combined weight of 19,000 lbs. The GCWR for you vehicle as you have described it is 16,000 lbs. That puts you 3,000 (about 19%) over the maximum weight rating. In reality, this is grounds for a warranty denial. The GCWR is one of those specifications that DaimlerChrysler has made very clear. Anytime that a customer is above the maximum weight rating, I WOULD recommend that he consider transmission modifications, and I would caution him about warranty jeopardy. It appears that this is the position that you are in now.



When a customer calls with a problem such as this, we will ask questions about the vehicle description, weight, etc. , so that we can approach the situation with all the facts. Typically, we will only send out information on Magnuson-Moss when the customer specifically requests that information. In reality, Magnuson-Moss is not really applicable here. If that is all that you were offered when you called, then I would like to speak with you and get more detail from you about your experience with us, so that if correction is necessary, I can address it.

 

[nps]

Quote:



PeterT



Anytime that a customer is above the maximum weight rating, I WOULD recommend that he consider transmission modifications, and I would caution him about warranty jeopardy. It appears that this is the position that you are in now.





Peter,



Not a Banks customer so no comments on products or service - good or bad.



After reviewing all these posts, I think the essence of the discussion is that recommendations and cautions such as you state above should be proactively provided with at least, if not more emphasis, as the assurances put forward by Banks regarding warranty coverage.



The impression I get is that these types of recommendations are only provided on an exception basis, and in most cases only after the damage is done. I'm not convinced that in the case of Mr. Wolfe the GCWR or basic/extended warranty is a defendable argument, and my opinion is that it borders on a technicality. Again the essence is not that warranty was denied, rather the denial was only evident to the purchaser after the fact and without prior warning. Had the banks product not been installed, neither the GCWR or basic/extended warranty issue would have surfaced. Again - only my opinion.



Kinda like selling securities. If you ever read a prospectus you wonder why anyone would buy after going over all the disclaimers and risks. But they do anyway, and accept the risks as an informed buyer.



My $. 02



Neil Snyder

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Peter - there is another thread on here regarding warranties and a discussion came up about Dr. Performance's warranty. I looked over their warranty and looked really closely at what my warranty manual has to say about it. Here's a couple of quotes from the warranty manual that came with my truck:

But your warranties don't cover any part that Chrysler didn't supply. Nor do they cover the costs of any repairs or adjustments that might be caused or needed because of the installation or use of non-Chrysler parts, components, equipment, materials, or additives.



Examples of the types of alterations not covered are:



* installing accessories - except for genuine Chrysler/MOPAR accessories installed by an authorized Chrysler dealer.

and

Other Exclusions

Your warranties don't cover the costs of repairing damage or conditions caused by any of the following:



* any changes made to your truck that don't comply with Chrysler specifications

You stated that you tested up to 1000 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels - which, btw is about what my truck has. Just because the drivetrain didn't blow out on your dyno doesn't mean that it meets Chrysler's specs. It seems to me that Chrysler's specifications very definately would include the amount of power that your engine is making. If they didn't feel that the amount of power the engine is making made a difference in the rest of the drivetrain then they wouldn't require you to buy the 6 speed if you want the HO motor. They also wouldn't have had lower output from the automatic equipped trucks before the 2001 model year. If you have a 1999 auto and upgrade your power just to the levels of the manual (only 20 more horsepower) wouldn't that be out of compliance with Chrysler specs? If it was in compliance with their specs I'm quite sure they would have had the automatic equipped engines making the same amount of power as the 5 speeds. Your kits are not genuine Chrysler/MOPAR parts as far as I know (they aren't in the MOPAR catalog - that's for sure).



You state above, "Our assurance of not exceeding the design tolerances of the vehicle drivetrain comes from testing, testing, testing. " If someone puts one of your kits on say a 1999 automatic truck and blows their transmission out and then Chrysler says it's because they exceeded the specs and can show tests that had transmission's failing at 235/460 ft/lbs (the 5 speed rating) what happens to that person? I'm sure they have tests proving exactly that because otherwise the 1999 auto's would have been at 235/460 instead of 215/420.



I'm not trying to flame or bash you here - just trying to clarify things. I've stayed out of these discussions until now but the warranty issue is a place where individuals can get hurt if they aren't fully aware of the consequences. This is one of the reasons that it is repeated over and over in the magazine "I AM MY OWN WARRANTY STATION" when it comes to increasing power. If I'm wrong in some way with what I posted here please let me know. JMHO, but increasing power in ANY way shape or form (no matter who's products are used) puts your warranty in potential jeopardy. Many of us are fully aware of that (partially because of the magazine) and many vendors state exactly that.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Peter,



Instead of answering my question Peter you have tried to further confuse the issue.



It is very simple , will you or will you not look after these customers as in pay them back if i forward their names to you.



Like Mr. Wolf. the slippage occured after the power enhancements, or are you going to answer them the way you just answered Mr. Wolf.



Why would i waste my time or theirs if this is your manner of handling the issue. These guys have already had the excuses and the act sent out ect.



Tom Wolf is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, believe it or not in his post to you he was very kind . What i witnessed along with about 20 other guys in Vegas during May Madness he didnt even mention.



Why dont you ask him about it sometime.



Peter i am impressed at how well versed you are at warranty denial reasons.



Why didnt you tell the guys to go over page 20 in their Chrysler warranty information booklet , one of the points mentioned on that page is that Chrysler denies power train warranty FOR OVERFUELING.



Peter , doesnt Banks power enhancements add more fuel?



As Steve pointed out, people are being financially hurt out there as some are led to believe that their warranties are still in tact contrary to what the Chrysler warranty booklet says.



You seem to feel i have a problem with Banks products, i dont , a lot of my customers have them, and that is their choice. What i have an issue with is how some of them came to me, it was after they were denied warranty by chrysler for the power enhancements.



Dont think i am for one minute suggesting that only Banks power enhancements cause pre-mature transmission failure because i am not.



The issue for me is the Banks customers i've had experience with seem to have been blind sided when their warranty was denied. These are by no means stupid people or guys looking for a free ride , most of the guys were professional people at the top of their given fields. The just were not mechanically inclined, and they trusted they were being told the truth about the warranty issue.





PS



As for the mouth piece thing, i pay $35. 00 a year for that right.

 

[C Schomer]

Hi Peter, I'm still working on my (long) letter. I might get it out to Colin tonight, finally. Look up your invoice #123088, 6/11/98 and see if you find my trail of problems. I quoted some of my talk with you in my letter. I bet you'll remember me! Craig

 

[NVR FNSH]

Bill,

Give it a rest with asking whether or not Banks will pay for the failed transmissions w/o doing an investigation. Provide the information requested and post the results of the OFF-LINE discussions with Banks. As the champion of the poor, blindsided souls are you pursuing any other shops that manufacture power enhancements? I'm willing to bet you've repaired/modified transmissions that been denied warranty coverage due to DD/Edge/etc OVER FUELING enhancements. Did these companies step up to the plate and pay to fix the transmissions? Did you go after them on a public forum?



Since you paid your $35. 00 and that gives you the right to be the mouthpiece please enlighten us all to the events at May Madness.



Brian