considering a Ram 4500 for ambulance duty

[dknoch]

Hello,

My department is looking to purchase a new ambulance in the next year or so. I have been looking into the different options as far as chassis' and engine combinations. I have been a Dodge Cummins fan for a long time, purchased my truck new almost 13 years ago and it is still going strong. With Ram's introduction of the 4500 and 5500 chassis, powered by a Cummins diesel, seem to make them a great option for an ambulance. However, recent changes in diesel engines have me concerned. My truck has been my daily driver since new, for all travels big and small with no major problems. The new diesels seem to be more prone to issues from short runs. Our department is only about 5 miles away from the nearest hospital and I am concerned that we would have problems. When we receive a call, we start the truck, floor it for about 5 minutes to the scene, idle it for about 20 minutes, floor it for another 5 minutes to the hospital, idle it for 20-30 minutes, and drive it 5 minutes home, then turn it off until the next run. I am afraid we will have several problems due to the driving conditions. We currently have 2 Ford E-450s with the 6.0 diesel. They have had their share of problems but have done their duty quite well considering. We test drove a Ford E450 with the V10 gas engine and were actually quite pleased, the low gearing and immediate throttle response provided good performance but most of us either have bad experience or no experience with gasoline powered ambulances. Also, for the sake of safety, we are considering going with something with a longer front end, Ram 4500, F-450, or possibly back into a Freightliner or International.

If anybody has any ideas or advise, it is very much welcomed. The big question is will a modern diesel still fit our use or should we look to a gasoline powered vehicle, what we save on the chassis and maintenance cost should off set the cost of fuel.

Thanks,
Dan Knoch

 

[Tuesdak]

The Modern DPF diesel emissions are simply not able to handle long idle times and short trips like above. Worse if the damn DPF clogs and cuts power while on the way to the hospital to 'protect the engine' your patient is in a world of hurt. Nothing is 100%, but, your use is a clear case of asking the DPF to clog all the time. The diesel emissions are a big change and source of problems over your 13 year old diesel truck that doesn't have them.

IF you had longer distances to allow the DPF to clear out it would be a different ballgame.

Get a gas engine for your specific short trip use.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

Rules vary: http://www.epa.gov/oms/highway-diesel/regs/420f12025.pdf

I've been a lifetime PCF/AEMT. My county has two newly acquired 4500's spec' as patrols that run DEF. NO issues whatsoever so far.

 

[Cummins12V98]

They are going to RAM's all over for many applications including Tow trucks, Armored trucks and Ambulances. Get er done!

 

[RBeard]

As fleet maintenance supervisor, I oversaw the acquisition and operation of 7- 4500's that had no downtime related to DPF or engine issues and idled extensively on scene and at hospitals. We went through a lot of Ford chassis before the admin. saw fit to change to Rams. I highly recommend them and the 5500's too.

 

[sag2]

The 13 and newer Ram's are much better as it relates to after treatment systems than the earlier years. There are many Ram ambulance bodies in service all over the country. Although there is always the off chance you may have a problem, I think the benefits of the diesel are still there. But don't over look the 6.4 gas engine as well. It will save you money in initial cost and maintenance, and will still do everything the diesel will do in your situation. I think either will do the job, and for the department the residual value of the diesel over the gas is probably a non issue.

 

[dknoch]

Thank you for all the great information. Good to hear they are holding up under these conditions. This has been on my mind for awhile. We are still a ways off from the purchase, keeps getting pushed back. Please keep me updated if you run into any issues.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[gsbrockman]

The Modern DPF diesel emissions are simply not able to handle long idle times and short trips like above.......Nothing is 100%, but, your use is a clear case of asking the DPF to clog all the time. The diesel emissions are a big change and source of problems over your 13 year old diesel truck that doesn't have them.

Lots of mis-information within this post......the '13 & up DEF equipped pickups have lots of documented idle time by oil field workers, RV transporters, and others, with minimal problems reported.

The Cab & Chassis trucks have been running DEF even longer-----and with similar success.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Be sure to order the VSIM (Vehicle system interface module) aka electronic monitoring module, which makes it easier to upfit the ambulance equipment.

 

[dknoch]

I kept up with the changes a little bit. Seemed that Ram held off the longest on switching to the DEF fluid but had a lot of issues because of it. I figured no one is going to know these trucks and engines better than you guys who are running them. Tons of changes in the past 13 years. Thanks for the ordering advise. The builders make stuff pretty simple on us, we tell them the chassis we want and it shows up a couple months later. I will definately remind our sales rep though.

Thanks again,
Dan

 

[Bob4x4]

make sure you choose an upfitter that knows the ram system.I have seen trouble free systems and problem ridden systems.The upfitter makes all the difference.

 

[Flying_gage]

Dan,

I am a full timer in the west burbs of Chicago. Finally ridding our fleet of 6.4's. Our new ambulance is a f450 with the 6.7. Very fast for what it is and quiet. That being said we are running into issues with transit times as you describe. With the Fords at least, the computer sees the idle time and starts dumping DEF secondary to a code fault of some sort. Only way to fix it is to get it out on the road and drive it at speed for an hour. That is straight from Ford.

Between the Ambos and our Engines and Trucks, the increased complexity has created unforeseen problems. We have a brand new tower having a complete in-frame at less than 20,000 miles. Our environment is not compatible to these constraints. People point to well drillers, long shot haulers et al saying that the evidence is there. I have never seen a well drilled drive with the same urgency as we do while responding to a pediatric code. That comparison is actually offensive to me.

For th Ambos, if I was in charge of purchasing, I would go gas. All the indicators are there for it. Especially for city driving. My am I right now is averaging 7.2 mpg. Gas models are in the same ball park. Factor in the initial purchase price and lower cost of fuel and there is real money savings there.

Keep us updated.

 

[Bob4x4]

I have't seen any Ram ambulances drop into the single didget mpg

 

[mwilson]

I would ASSUME that an Ambulance Prep Package would exist from RAM that might include the VSIM and dual alternators for example.

Make sure the chassis cab was specced for Ambulance duty as opposed to someone pulling an average chassis cab that didn't sell off a lot and making it work.
I have seen that done with Freightliner Crew Cabs when someone is trying to shave a bid for a fire truck and "converts" a lot truck. Way better off to order the proper unit.

 

[dknoch]

I have heard mixed things on the Ford 6.7, no personal experience. I will definately have a conversation with the sales person to discuss the ordering of the chassis. Does anyone have any insite if the are expected changes going into 2016? I give credit to our crew who spec'd our fire engine about 10 years ago. Had a Detroit 60 ordered a year early, sitting on a palet and waiting for the truck to be built due to the required changes that were coming out.
Thanks again!

 

[Bill Stockard]

I would ASSUME that an Ambulance Prep Package would exist from RAM that might include the VSIM and dual alternators for example.

Make sure the chassis cab was specced for Ambulance duty as opposed to someone pulling an average chassis cab that didn't sell off a lot and making it work.
I have seen that done with Freightliner Crew Cabs when someone is trying to shave a bid for a fire truck and "converts" a lot truck. Way better off to order the proper unit.

Yes, I've seen that happen also when a "lot" truck is converted. No one is happy with the results except the salesman who collected his sales commission and moved on. It's much more economical long term to order a properly equipped chassis to be converted.

Bill

 

[Tuesdak]

Lots of mis-information within this post......the '13 & up DEF equipped pickups have lots of documented idle time by oil field workers, RV transporters, and others, with minimal problems reported.

The Cab & Chassis trucks have been running DEF even longer-----and with similar success.

That's NOT what I have been reading about the endless problems with the emissions equipment on diesel engines. The post about the troublesome parts runner truck in cold weather comes to mind. Yes, maybe the 13 and up is better, but, they are NOT better than the emissions free engines period. Maybe high idle solves some of the DPF issues at idle? It's about every other post is an emissions related problem. The system has to clear the DPF from idle time. Not only that but the systems are so sensitive that if you loose the air filter the engine can enter limp mode. I have seen an air filter fall apart on a 2008 Duramax and the engine entered limp mode as it didn't see enough restriction form an air filter. It's going to take a lot more "abuse" stories with the 13+ systems to change my mind and so far I am still seeing emissions issues including frozen DEF limiting power.

The real question is the gas engine that unreliable as well?