Cylinder wall washdown with aftermarket injectors

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Chaw's thread on the PowerMax3 includes a post by Diesel Doug with an apparent email or letter from Mark at TST. Included in the letter is a statement to the effect that "aftermarket injectors other than Bosch can strip oil off the cylinder walls and dribble at idle". Not an exact quote, but close enough. This from a highly experienced and much respected and admired retired Cummins engineer. More scary thoughts to keep me awake at night, wondering if my brand x injectors are dribbling like Gramps in his Depends underpants. #ad

Something to take seriously, I guess, but I sure wish we knew more on this subject, I never have received a straight answer from anyone on injectors, other than 2 people who talked to Mark.
More whining from me? NO! Just wondering.

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2001 Cummins Dodge Ram 3500 Sport(black) 4x4 QC 5 spd. , has a bad habit of outrunning Ford Mustangs and PowerChokes while towing a 97 Skeeter ss140 17' bass boat. (water's the only place left I won't get a speeding ticket)

 

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Briar,
HVAC just had an oil analysis done. He is running Stage III DD injectors. Fuel dillution was only a half of a percent. Thats what my stock truck had when I did an anaysis. I doubt very much you will get oil dillution & ring wash. It would have shown up in the Analysis. These are bosch injectors, I`m not sure what other company makes injectors for B-Series Cummins.

Original thread HVAC`s Oil Analysis: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb//Forum4/HTML/003120.html




[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 10-06-2000). ]

 

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Hemi,thanks for replying... my oil analysis showed zero percent fuel content in my Amsoil, so I'm sure I'm okay. I suppose my main gripe is how little some of us know about causes and effects of some of these aftermarket products, how hard it can be to get impartial information sometimes. For example, I learned more in 5 minutes reading the updated TST website than I learned in one month on the forums...
There seems to be 2 camps when it comes to injectors: stock Bosch vs. extrude-honed, and both sides have their champions. Proven pros and cons of each, posted for general access, would be nice, but not likely to happen. We receive a lot of conflicting opinions on these matters.
Actually, Hemi, Mark's words were that these were injectors that "used to be Bosch" but were altered aftermarket. .
Remember, this is one experienced cookie, he's seen about everything come through his garage, and I doubt he's one to idly flap his lips about such things. But I'm also pretty convinced that engine damage from funny injectors is very rare, and may be due to a host of other factors. Have you seen the intense, overbearing clown working for DC that goes to all the TDR events? The one with the hysterical(no he's not hysterical, he makes ME hysterical with laughter) rant and table full of injection pumps damaged by fueling boxes? Lopsided information, scare tactics, lack of information to counter his claims with... very annoying to me.
I'M NOT KNOCKING ANYBODY'S PRODUCT or services, very satisfied with everyone I've dealt with so far, and I've sure put in a good word for the ones I believe in. It's just that it can be so hard to get good information sometimes.

[This message has been edited by Briar Hopper (edited 10-06-2000). ]

 

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As with everything, "it depends" (and not just for the dribblers #ad
).

My personal opinion (and that only) is that high flow injectors (defining high flow as bigger then 275's or equivalent) are a bad idea for a-lot of stop and go driving and short runs where the engine doesn't get warm enough -- and also for applications where the truck needs to idle a long time.

i. e. If I was using the truck for a delivery vehicle in the city I wouldn't want high flow injectors. If I was using the truck as a pumper and it had to sit and idle all the time filling tanks and so forth; I wouldn't want high flow injectors.

From personal experience: that first 'throttle up' after idling an extended period is a pretty smoky one. So the observed evidence stongly suggests some extra fuel in there. But since I almost never idle for longer then a stop light I don't care. And I also do relatively little stop and go driving. Why does that matter? Simple: the observed fact is there's more smoke with high flow injectors at low RPM. Low smoke = some unburnt fuel. But at high RPMs smoke is unchanged from stock. Result: stop and go driving (frequent low RPMs) means high flow injectors are probably a bad idea.

Conclusion: it depends #ad
. Everything depends on how you're going to use it. To keep it safe, stay stock and don't worry about it. But hey, where's the fun in that? So weigh your use requirements and try to keep some balance... .

- MAK

[This message has been edited by Mark Kitchell (edited 10-06-2000). ]

 

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Briar,

"There seems to be 2 camps when it comes to injectors: stock Bosch vs. extrude-honed, and
both sides have their champions. Proven pros and cons of each, posted for general access,
would be nice, but not likely to happen. We receive a lot of conflicting opinions on these matters. "

Yup, I agree. This may be a bit like religion, find the one that closest to what you can live with and maintain the course. You can't believe the number of people who told me the extrude honed injectors will not work. They were the ones who had not actually tried them of course. Guess what? They do work by God! And like Hemi posted, my oil measured less then . 5%. Washdown? Show me! So I suggest that first hand information is best. I believe that some of the injectors from Doc caused problems, can't say from my experience, just second hand info. I am told that without proper quality control the flowed injectors may leak. Well I am not aware of any injectors from Diesel Dynamics leaking. This means that the process has been perfected and you need not fear this extrude hone process which is also used by Bosch to an extent as well as DD.
When I was at May Madness I had several people tell me that the stock Bosch injectors were the only way to go due to the sharp edges on the nozzles. Well we had a post here a couple months ago to the contrary. Bosch uses the extrude hone process to finish their injector nozzles. So Briar, the flowed injectors produce double the power of the 275's and we have had no reports of problems, you be the judge #ad

 

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Many thanks, MAK, HVAC, for the replies...
I have yet to be disappointed with ANYTHING
installed on my truck. Nor am I really worried about any damage that said products might cause. Like I said, I think such damage is a rarity. Yet we have very little information, I would speculate that pump or engine damage is more often found by DC, and we all know they are not going to share the technical details and statistics of such with us. If a shop like TST or Diesel Dynamics managed to get their hands on a "damaged" engine, it would be interesting to hear their educated opinion of what caused the failure.
I'm willing to bet most failures, if any, are caused by improper installation and/or operator mistakes. Failure to monitor EGT's would be a good example. Failure due to quality control problems? HaHa, not if it's from Diesel Dynamics or TST. No way. HVAC, talking about Doc... you mean Dr. Performance? Don't you just love the secrecy surrounding his products? I'm as likely to deal with him as I am to buy a stick-on deer whistle for the front of my truck. At least I hope that's the "Doc" you're talking about, we got a "Doc" of our own in the GLTDR, he doesn't deal in injectors that I know of, he's just a harmless storyteller. Unless he's been using his DeWalt drill to extrude-hone stolen school bus injectors, and I didn't know it. #ad