Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) DDP Stage 3 or Stage 4 Injectors w/ Stock Turbo?

[MMcCallie]

Looking for injector advice. I like to do things once, getting it right the first time if possible. I'm planning to swap my 160 pump for a 215. Stock turbo is good so i don't want to touch it right now-later when budget allows. Looking for 350 hp now but i'd like to be upgrading to parts easily capable of 500 hp later on without further, expensive modifications. I want to buy a set of injectors i know i'll be satisfied with.



Ross at DDP says stage 3 injectors should maintain safe EGTs and controllable smoke if i leave the 215 pump stock. I also plan on advancing the pump to 15. 5 degrees. Aside from safely making the truck more powerful and driveable, i want the best fuel economy possible.



Can i get away with stage 4 injectors with a stock turbo in the mountains, or do i need to stick with stage 3s? If i slide the cam plate all the way back with stage 4s and my stock turbo, what sort of power and EGTs should i be reaching? What might i expect for fuel economy with either set in a 10,000 lb truck having 35" tires and 3. 73 gears? I know i'll have to watch my gauges if i tow until i go to a bigger turbo.



Ross said that the 215 pump only needs a plate, GSK, and stage 4 injectors to make 600 hp. He also says the stage 3s will support 500 hp. He claims DDP stage 3s are bigger than anything from Bosch. I realize my turbo will be holding me back, but i'm spending too much as is.



I have a 5" exhaust with a muffler behind a 4" downpipe, an open element conical air filter, and will be reconnecting my water/methanol injection. I imagine those items should help me maintain EGTs below 1,500. I hope to stay under 1,200 degrees climbing hills in the mountains.



I know a lot of you guys are running DDP injectors and am anxious to hear your opinions and suggestions. I plan to order this week. Bottom line, should i go with stage 3 or stage 4 injectors?

Thanks,

Matt

 

[wildmanben]

My stage 4s will heat up my 64 pretty good, cant imagine what the stocker would be like...

 

[MMcCallie]

wildmanben,
Is that with your plate slid all the way back? I see you have a #0 plate and more pump mods than my stock 215 will have. Would i be safe?

 

[wildmanben]

I still think they would be too much for that stocker. If you drive very conservatively they would be ok, but whats the fun in that?

 

[zstroken]

I had 3's in with my stocker and it was fine. 1997 180HP truck with the stock plate. I don't think it got over 1200 with them. I forget though.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Your best combination for the stock turbo would be smaller injectors than you are considering, and a moderate torque plate. With a 160 hp pump, 215 hp injectors and a #6 TST plate would work. With a 215 hp pump, the #11 plate and 215 hp injectors would max out your stock turbo. Bosch 370 injectors with the stock plate would be similar to the #11/215s in exhaust heat. You need a larger turbo or you will eventually crack the head and swell pistons in the bore until they gall up. Right now you are feeding that 5” exhaust through a 1. 5” pipe (the turbine housing). I got my 215 engine up to 600 hp in 2001 but did a lot more than just a plate, governor spring kit, and injectors to get there.

 

[BPonci]

[ I got my 215 engine up to 600 hp in 2001 but did a lot more than just a plate, governor spring kit, and injectors to get there. [/QUOTE]



And all this time you have been telling us that was with a stock 215 pump. Care to share the truth?

 

[pwerwagn]

I think he was implying that you also need air (I. E, turbo, head work, etc) to make power, not just fuel.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

That's right. It was a stock 215 hp -913 pump with my prototype zero plate in it and the afc work that has been described on this forum. That pump got Sickly 633. 8 at MM2002 with stock -181 delivery valves. That is sharing the truth, to the extent that you have asked Pwerwagn "borrowed" a set of used injectors and hand-ground zero plate from me for the NMTDR Dyno Day, and made 546 hp.

 

[Cooker]

If you plan to run a plate I would stay away from both the 3's and the 4's with your stock turbo.



If you want 350HP and a stock turbo for now a #10 in a tuned 215 pump will be pretty darn close.

 

[MMcCallie]

I've been told by most that modding the 215 pump with a plate would be too much for the stock 160 injectors. Heard back today from DDP and they said absolutely no way on stage 4s. They are for racing, way too much fuel for my HX35. Ross also said that the 3s would yield the best fuel economy. DDP has made as much as 617 hp with stage 3 injectors running sololey on #2 diesel.

Only modifcation i see likely on this 215 pump for now will be to slide the stock plate way back. My impression is that these injectors will flow a lot of fuel so i might have to light foot it to keep from scorching my turbo, blacking out the sun, or climbing into dangerous EGTs. I hope my fuel economy will double and that the truck will at least spin a tire on wet pavement and have power to safely accelerate into fast moving traffic. I'll update with results.

 

[Cooker]

I hope my fuel economy will double and that the truck will at least spin a tire on wet pavement and have power to safely accelerate into fast moving traffic.

Fuel economy double? The 160's are usually pretty easy on fuel and net some pretty good mileage numbers. Unless something is seriously wrong with your truck now and it is getting horrible fuel economy I would not expect a huge increase with the pump and injectors, especially with a stock turbo. Throw a turbo upgrade in there and then a more noticable increase in fuel economy might happen. JMHO

 

[bmoeller]

IF you see any gains in mileage, it most likely won't be any more than 1-2mpg.

Bone stock, I couldn't do any better than 16. 1. After the #10 (stock postion), 370s and PDR HX40, I was getting up to 17-17. 5. This was with the stock dually box. Lost 2-2. 5 mpg with the flatbed.

 

[MMcCallie]

With my stock 160 setup, i'm barely getting 9 mpg. That's it. Biggest reason for swapping to the 12 valve from a 7. 3 was that the PSD got 11 mpg and had no power. The 5. 9 has been disappointing so far. I'm pondering if something is wrong with the 160 pump and or injectors, causing the truck to operate so poorly.

Some have said the 215 pump will get better fuel economy in addition to making more power and running smoother. DDP says their stage 3 injectors get the best fuel economy. I can't afford a turbo yet. The Excursion is a beast but i figured a Cummins was the only way to improve over what i had. Hopefully these mods will reap at least some improvements.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

MMcCallie how about DDP Stage 2s? That way it would be easier to dial the plate up and down to find your EGT limit. Lenny made a set for my '96 and I'll probably do the same for my '98.

 

[MMcCallie]

Yeah, he suggested IIs being a better fit with my current setup, but as i said before, i don't want to have to buy another set of injectors in a year or two. Sounds like the 3s are going to work and they will support both my present and future horse power goals, unlike the IIs. I think the 3s will be a permanent solution.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Ross said that the 215 pump only needs a plate, GSK, and stage 4 injectors to make 600 hp

I'm going to have to be a smarty butt here and say it: With who tuning it! Like Joe and Ponci it's not that big of a deal to make that power but it's always just the few that do.



Back to the topic, I would go with 3's looking at your gearing, tire size and lack of turbo.



Jim

 

[Dual EE]

MMcallie,

When my 160 hp truck was completely stock I was getting 20-22 on the hwy. The truck was a dog though with any kind of a load. I too, was a little dissappointed in its performance. But with just a #10 plate, 15. 5* timing, and 3 gsk I dyno'd at 245 hp with the 160 pump and injectors.



When the 370 injectors were installed my stock turbo was out gunned. A freeway on ramp would easily send my egt's into the red. I think after you install the 3's you will find that you'll be looking for a bigger turbo sooner then you think. The fun window in my case was very small.



I would really liked to hear your results with the 160 pump and the 3's. So keep us informed.

 

[Driftwood Ram]

Well, it looks like I am in trouble. I have a set of 4's I got last year before I left Washington for warmer and dryer weather sitting on the shelf. Piers was going to put them in for me, but I left we could get together.

 

[MMcCallie]

I can't go with 4s without stepping into a much bigger turbo too. DDP said they wouldn't even sell them to me.