Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Dealer Fuel Pump Re-Fit??? Rip Off?

[Fontaine]

My 2000 Dodge CTD has 150,000 miles. I've been through 3 lift pumps including the stock. I've always replaced it with stock, although I did remote it to the frame rail to make the swap easier. Sunday morning I broke down (no fuel pressure) a long ways from home. Had to tow it to a dealer. The mechanic talked me into an in-tank pump like the newer models. He gave me a number of reasons. . cooler, push pump, etc. He also said I would have 15 psi, constant. I picked it up today. It idles at 9 and 1/2 psi. I showed him the fuel gauge. The reply was, "Well it is a high flow pump so it is fine"..... I'm having a hard time with that since the fuel lines are the same size... . At WOT it drops to 7psi but I can't force it lower. OK. . now the questions... I know the stock pump was supposed to have 10-12 psi at idle. Does anyone know what the newer CTD's have at idle? (with the pump in the tank) Could it be that the pump they put in is defective? The FP number is 68003854-AA. Any info or source would be appreciated. .

 

[AMerrill]

I would also like to know they did that with me also and mine has 5 psi at the lowest running down the road it has 6-7 psi at idle. they gave me the same B. S also about that it is a high flow pump he also told me that the new ones where only like 3-4 if that.

 

[Colando]

I have an 01 that has had the original pump replaced twice, than dealer talked me into doing mod. to install pump in tank. I was disappointed as soon as I started it up, 7 psi at idle ,same story,high flow etc. A few months later a different dealer replaced this one saying the pressure seamed to low. Well still no better, and to top it now the tank neck is cracked and they blame each other. My advise is to stay away from in tank, and go with a good aftermarket pump. I'm currently replacing the tank with the cracked neck, and installing an Air Dog.

 

[aircop]

I two was talked into the intank pump but when I seen the fuel pressure it put out I wanted to kill the *******. Called BD bought their auxzillary pump. Mounted it on frame rail and ran it inline with intank pump. Works fine 20 psi@ idle 14-16 wot. been on there about 2yrs no problems.

 

[Fontaine]

Update: I spoke to mechanic at dealer today. Explained that I am not satisfied. I'm bringing it back in this weekend. They assured me that they would "make it right". I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

 

[SnoKing]

Update: I spoke to mechanic at dealer today. Explained that I am not satisfied. I'm bringing it back in this weekend. They assured me that they would "make it right". I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

Making it right would be to give you your money back and the old tank module, so that you can start over. They do not have a right solution! SNOKING

 

[ajak]

It looks like the dealers are pushing this type of in tank pump now b/c they're just trying to do some warrenty work. That's my take on it.

 

[jkidd]

high pressure

The only high pressure you get is from the dealer (Los Banos Ca) to spend $500 to have them install a low pressure pump (thanks to TDR I declined). I had them push me to get the in tank pump 2 years ago when my injection pump went out. I was out of warranty and them offer me the injection pump for $1700 + install (another $400). I was lucky enough to have another TDR member Mike Crosly save me $400 by getting me a discount on the part from another dealer. Thanks to all those who volunteer on the TDR TRAVEL COMPANION!!!!!! and thanks to Woodsrat at new era diesel for helping me troubleshoot and giving me mikes phone #.

 

[Huff N Puff]

Its a little pricey but its a good fix.Here are my reasons.

My 2000 Dodge CTD has 150,000 miles. I've been through 3 lift pumps including the stock. I've always replaced it with stock, although I did remote it to the frame rail to make the swap easier. Sunday morning I broke down (no fuel pressure) a long ways from home. Had to tow it to a dealer. The mechanic talked me into an in-tank pump like the newer models. He gave me a number of reasons. . cooler, push pump, etc. He also said I would have 15 psi, constant. I picked it up today. It idles at 9 and 1/2 psi. I showed him the fuel gauge. The reply was, "Well it is a high flow pump so it is fine"..... I'm having a hard time with that since the fuel lines are the same size... . At WOT it drops to 7psi but I can't force it lower. OK. . now the questions... I know the stock pump was supposed to have 10-12 psi at idle. Does anyone know what the newer CTD's have at idle? (with the pump in the tank) Could it be that the pump they put in is defective? The FP number is 68003854-AA. Any info or source would be appreciated. .

It eliminates the suction line on the old design pump,which was source of many problems. The line was prone to leaking, and was very restrictive, which aerated the fuel entering the VP44. Even if you install a High volume pump out side the tank,the suction line feeding your High Volume Pump is too restrictive so you dont get the full capability of the pump,and may aerate the fuel in the process. The best place for a fuel pump, is in the bottom of the tank,so all the pump does is just push the fuel. You get more solid fuel flow that way. You shouldn't need any more pressure,for a stock truck. If you are fueling heavier than stock you would need to gang it with a pump outside the tank. to increace volume and pressure,for the heavier demand.

 

[JAG1]

The best place for a fuel pump, is in the bottom of the tank,so all the pump does is just push the fuel. You get more solid fuel flow that way. You shouldn't need any more pressure,for a stock truck. If you are fueling heavier than stock you would need to gang it with a pump outside the tank. to increace volume and pressure,for the heavier demand.

Sorry H and P, I see your reasoning but strongly disagree. The lift pump in the tank is so unreliable, that you need to be able to change it out along the roadside when it goes out. That is why we put on the fuel pressure gauge, to know when it needs changing.



Also even if it was a higher volume pump, which in IMO, is not, you need the higher steadier pressures to help cool the vp. It's the amount of return fuel flow that is important here.



Get the L/P back on the frame near the tank, put on a pre L/P primary filter to help keep out the dirt from the L/P it'll help the secondary filter not clog so fast. I cannot say this enough, but, get rid of all the poorly designed fuel lines and banjo bolts. If you do this you will see a major difference. \



And the stock lift pump, not the in tank P. O. S. , will not be working so hard and make you smile when you get on the wot's.



I just took a look at the in tank pump said, 'Sh) it! there's no way I'd have that little tiny thing on my truck way out in the middle nowhere, stuck inside the tank to boot

 

[rweis]

IF you have a VP44 it is calibrated to 13. 5 psi. Further there is a diaphram that is allowed to flex +-. 5mm which generally accepted means +- 3 psi. More flex than that the seals around the diaphram start to deform / deterioate or the diaphram itself starts to flex too much and will develop a crack and that will cause the VP44 failure. The diaphram keeps the low pressure side and the high pressure side internal to the VP44 seperated.



IF you have the correct pressure range then you must also supply adequate volume to fill the intermediary vane pump lobes completely (without turbulance).



Assumming you have the corrrect psi and volume of fuel, then the excess fuel not used by the injectors (excess fuel is about 70% of the total) is used to cool the VP44. The VP44 generates internal heat based on rpm and load.



I will suffice to say and not rewrite about several hundred pages of fuel threads that the DC concept of dumping the hot VP44 return fuel right back in where the VP44 "cooling" fuel is picked up and sent on to the VP44 again is a poor idea.



The only DC stock item in my fuel system IS the VP44 and the dash fuel gauge. NOT the tank, fuel feed lines, lp pump, fuel filters, fuel return lines, fuel level sensors, fuel cannister, fuel pickup tube, tank filler tube, tank filler vent line, you get the idea.



I am not trying to be difficult, but I think you need to do some searching to get a better understanding what you need to feed the VP44 properly.



Bob Weis



JAG1: In an APPS thread Garry started back in 2004 (https://www.turbodieselregister.com...nsmission-1998-5-2002/99611-anatomy-apps.html (BTW we have a fix to the dc APPS)) I have pics of 3 holes I drilled in the top of the APPS housing to use the VP44 blower to also cool the APPS module. Works great! no more over heated APPS module. A side benefit to the VP44 cooling blower.

 

[Huff N Puff]

I see you have a draw straw,

Sorry H and P, I see your reasoning but strongly disagree. The lift pump in the tank is so unreliable, that you need to be able to change it out along the roadside when it goes out. That is why we put on the fuel pressure gauge, to know when it needs changing.



Also even if it was a higher volume pump, which in IMO, is not, you need the higher steadier pressures to help cool the vp. It's the amount of return fuel flow that is important here.



Get the L/P back on the frame near the tank, put on a pre L/P primary filter to help keep out the dirt from the L/P it'll help the secondary filter not clog so fast. I cannot say this enough, but, get rid of all the poorly designed fuel lines and banjo bolts. If you do this you will see a major difference. \



And the stock lift pump, not the in tank P. O. S. , will not be working so hard and make you smile when you get on the wot's.



I just took a look at the in tank pump said, 'Sh) it! there's no way I'd have that little tiny thing on my truck way out in the middle nowhere, stuck inside the tank to boot

So you agree the OE suction line is restrictive,Now here is the down side of the draw straw,when you get below 1/3 tank sloshing fuel can cause the draw straw to pull air,which in turn will cavitate the VP44, that cavitation will reek havoc on your VP44, which can still leave you on the side of the road. Possibliy why so many VPs fail.

 

[rweis]

I have a DrawStraw as well, and run it without any problems of sucking air.



I think the key to the DrawStraw is very very careful planning and measureing. My DrawStraw sits right on the bottom of the tank with a partial 45* angle cut (the cut only goes from one side of the DrawStraw to the middle of the flat cut on the bottom of the DrawStraw. I run my tank down regularly to the "low fuel" light.



However, I also changed the fuel level indicator from the DC "design". When the "low fuel " light comes on you should have a minimum of 4" of fuel in the bottom of the tank or about 10 gallons remaining. You HAVE to know what your fuel level indicator is doing in your truck. I live in flat FL and it works fine here. If I lived in a more rolling terrain then I would refuel sooner.



Some have bed aux tanks and basically use the OEM tank as a huge sump tank. In the thread about replacing your fuel level indicator one person put a 10 gallon tank in the bed and continually pumped fuel from the OEM tank into the 10 gallon tank and let excess fuel in the 10 gallon tank return back to the OEM tank by gravity. Basically a 10 gallon in the bed sump because the OEM tank has NO sump or even any baffles (DC must have saved $. 10 to not have baffles).



Pros and cons with anything.



I personally did not like the intank mesh filter you could not easily get to to clean, the size restriction and S shape of the fuel pickup hose in the cannister, dumping hot VP44 return fuel right into the "cooling fuel" fuel pickup cup, the fuel level indicator float that breaks up, the fuel level indicator that fails electrically over time, the steel fuel lines that rot and leak over time, the probably worse choice of an lp that could be made, the non standard electrical characteristics of the fuel level indicator system, and now to replace the OEM lp with another lp that does NOT meet minimum VP44 calibration requirements (13. 5 psi plus volume) and then to put that lp in the tank where it is very difficult to service, fuel return lines that are exceptionally restricitve, to name a few.



You DO have to KNOW what your trade offs are before you go modifying things and throughly understand what the consequences are, but there are significantly better choices than those offered by DC.



If you want to extend this into "why so many VP44's fail" then there are several several more factors that impact that subject beyond the fuel system.



Bob Weis

 

[JAG1]

Bob weis, thanks for the info on the three holes. I missed that one due to my jumping to the last page all the time to see the progress on the alternative APPS.

Also still need to change out the return line. Forgot about it being restrictive like the oem 'cooling lines'.

Wanted to say , and I do trust your info, but Cummins parts told me the vp can take up to 18 p. s. i. , no more. Though I would not want to find out by trying.

 

[rweis]

Bob weis, thanks for the info on the three holes. I missed that one due to my jumping to the last page all the time to see the progress on the alternative APPS.



Also still need to change out the return line. Forgot about it being restrictive like the oem 'cooling lines'.



Wanted to say , and I do trust your info, but Cummins parts told me the vp can take up to 18 p. s. i. , no more. Though I would not want to find out by trying.

OK, I can add that to the arsenal of knowledge. The 13. 5 calibration psi came from Industrial Injection, the +- 3 psi is sort of been a "standard", but Cummins parts told me the vp can take up to 18 p. s. i. , no more. I can accept that.



Remember years back when "more was better?" and some guys were running 20+ psi?



Bob Weis

 

[JAG1]

I do remember that.

To properly modify the fuel system is all in the interest of saving the vp.

I hope some of these guys listen because these mods are the first, foremost ones I would do. They are relatively easy if you just decide to get after it. Not hard with the right kit.

 

[AMerrill]

I would really like to see pics of bob's and Gary's vp-44 cooling blower it like it would work very well



Allan

 

[rweis]

The bilge blower is for boat bilges. The reason I used it is cost (~$40), high CFM (240), made out of ABS plastic (no rust etc), shielded motor. Uses 3. 5 amps / hour.



Blower mounted under bumper, drivers side view showing ducting and wiring, VP44 with ducting aimed under APPS bracket cover.



THE KEY- THE KEY is a $15 project timer board Gary figuered out how to power when the engine is running and ALSO run after the truck is shutoff (ie to combat heat soak). You can adjust the amount of time it runs after shutdown. I have mine set at 1 1/2 hours.



Bob Weis