Death Wobble

[DHull]

I am in need of some help I have a 2008 2500 SLT the has a death wobble so bad I am almost not able to drive the truck. All I want to know is this repairable and what is it that needs to be done. Here is the stats on the truck 2008 Dodge SLT Crew Cab Has 285x75x17 Nitto Grappler tires with about 2000 miles did a wheel alignment then, Has a level kit also a new steering damper. Please send me the info if it can be fixed I sure do not want to get rid of the truck because it is not drivable. Thanks for any and all help.

 

[crispyboy]

Figure out what is worn out. It could be one item or a combination there of.
- track bar
- ball joints
- tie rods
- drag link
- steering box
- control arms

 

[sag2]

Did it start after the tire or wheel replacement or the lift? If not it is a worn part(s) as stated above. Otherwise back track on the aftermarket items until you find the culprit.

 

[brods]

Is this the same truck from a about a year ago? https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/250322-Death-Wobble?highlight=death+wobble

There are plenty of threads on the subject if you do a search, but be aware there are no magic bullets for a cure. You must go through every component looking for the problem ones and fix them.

Scroll down in this thread to see some good info from a Chrysler engineer: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/250322-Death-Wobble?highlight=death+wobble

 

[Ozymandias]

And don't forget about the alignment - it needs to be properly sets.

 

[NIsaacs]

And don't forget about the alignment - it needs to be properly sets.

I agree, different tires can require slight adjustments, usually more toe in.

Nick

 

[cerberusiam]

What is the tire rating? E's only, if you have D rated tires you are just wasting your time.

With a leveling\lift you NEED better shocks than the stockers. Get a set of Bilstein's on there and try again. The 5100 series are good, the 5160's better. You can run with massive amounts of wear in steering components and messed up alignment with no issues if shocks and tires are good.

 

[DonFitzwater]

My wife's 08 Mega cab death wobble was finally cured by a Kore suspension package. The factory geometry and steering stabilizer were mainly to blame. Never had another issue after that for approx 80k miles. It was a near weekly occurrence when it was new.

 

[AEdelheit]

What is the tire rating? E's only, if you have D rated tires you are just wasting your time.

With a leveling\lift you NEED better shocks than the stockers. Get a set of Bilstein's on there and try again. The 5100 series are good, the 5160's better. You can run with massive amounts of wear in steering components and messed up alignment with no issues if shocks and tires are good.

I know your well versed on these trucks but respectfully disagree with both statements.

I am more concerned about the quality of tire over the rating, I have seen just as many E rated tires have issues as D rated, run a high quality tire of either rating and no issues.

In terms of the shocks a lift or level does not change the spring rate or make a need for better shocks, longer shocks sure but they are still controlling the same spring rate. For that matter a bad shock will allow uncontrolled moment of the spring not steering, DW is in the steering so IMO while a bad shock may cause issues it can not cause DW.

 

[cerberusiam]

I am more concerned about the quality of tire over the rating, I have seen just as many E rated tires have issues as D rated, run a high quality tire of either rating and no issues.

Quality? How do you rate the quality of a tire? Is it by the wear? Hardness of rubber? Number of belts? What? Just because a tire will carry the weight of a vehicle and uses the highest quality construction does not mean it is suitable to the platform. There are more important attributes to a tire than quality.

DW is in the steering so IMO while a bad shock may cause issues it can not cause DW.

Short answer, no. The bulk of the problems with DW in these trucks comes from bad shocks, bad tires, and the wrong tire. Steering problem result in wandering and loose feeling operations, suspension control problems result in DW. The design of the front suspension coupled with the weight position has a drastic effect tone tire performance and shock performance, specifically the shocks do not control rebound dampening adequately when worn and the wrong tires compress too much when force is applied.

As a rule DW starts when the suspension system is compressed quickly from a high force incident, ie hitting a hole or obstruction in the road. This force is usually much higher on one side or the other of the suspension, it forces one side up sharply and the other side down due to the pivot point on track bar. If the tire cannot absorb enough of the energy it is transferred to the shock, if the shock cannot control the force the movement simply accelerates the up and down on opposite sides of the suspension. You have tire and shock compressing\rebounding out of control, death wobble!

Yes the steering wheel is jerking because of bump steer, the design of the track bar and pitman arm cause it. If they don't operate in the same plane the steering will move because it is the natural outlet for the force.

A D rated simply does not have the sidewall strength to handle the constant force generated by the 1200 lbs of engine directly over it. A lot of E rated tires suffer the same issue, they start out good and the stress breaks down the sidewalls and they turn into a big super ball at each corner. Taller tires are worse, too much sidewall. Take a look at the weights of some of these tires if you want to look for the real short comings, the higher rated tires are always a good 10% heavier and the bulk of that is in the sidewalls to allow constant flex and weight carrying.

90% of the time one can install a high quality set of shocks and the problem disappears, and I don't mean Monroe form corner parts store. These trucks require high quality like Bilstein, King, Fox, or it a waste of time and $$. The rest of the time it gets more expensive with tires and steering components.

 

[AEdelheit]

A good quality tire as in a true, well rounded, well constructed tire. Its amazing how many brand new tires are out of round and have poor construction quality. I have well over 200k on 37" D rated tires with no issues and know many other in similar situations, sorry while its convenient to blame D rated tires its just not accurate.

I am very familiar with bump steer, DW and the front ends of these trucks as I deal with it daily. Sorry to say the steering wheel shake is caused by bump steer is just not true. I have seen many trucks with Kings and DW issues due to track bars , tie rod ends, alignment or ball joints that were solved without ever touching the shock, on the same note I have dealt with many truck that have bad shocks and no DW issues or steering issues.

 

[cerberusiam]

A good quality tire as in a true, well rounded, well constructed tire. Its amazing how many brand new tires are out of round and have poor construction quality. I have well over 200k on 37" D rated tires with no issues and know many other in similar situations, sorry while its convenient to blame D rated tires its just not accurate.

LOL, I would expect out of round tires to be an issue. Those should get caught almost immediately on install. It is the ones that go out of round when they get warmed up that are really tough to deal with. Sorry, in practical application the failure rate on a normal sized D rated tire on these trucks are much higher than an E rates one. Trying to compare a D rated 37 to a standard size tire is another failure that won't yield comparable results. Put a 265/70/17 D rated tire in typical usage mix and it is a much different story. NOW you have to deal with the stock design and not upgraded components that you had to install to run that bigger tire and the variance gets much wider.

Add to that these trucks running around with 37's are not stressing the tires like most of us are with closer to stock size, heavy loads, and less than adequate roads. Pretty much guarantee those D rated 37's would not be so great with a 12k trailer on them in the constant high heat rough road conditions. Usage plays a large part in how a tire stands up to usage, even the E rated tires take a bad enough beating to cause them to fail.

I am very familiar with bump steer. Sorry to say the steering wheel shake is caused by bump steer is just not true.

Direct contradictory statement. If the steering wheel doesn't move how do you know there is bump steer? Take a good look under the new trucks and see what Ram has done to combat the inherent design problems. Better yet, build yourself a cross over steering and relocate that track bar to where it does the most good and see what does for handling on a lifted big tire truck.

I have seen many trucks with Kings and DW issues due to track bars , tie rod ends, alignment or ball joints that were solved without ever touching the shock, on the same note I have dealt with many truck that have bad shocks and no DW issues or steering issues.

Did you try replacing shocks to see the effect? Note, when I talk about shocks it is the ones at each corner and the one(s) on the tie rod. I have. Granted the BJ's needed replaced and the tires were JUNK but adding a good steering shock and a set of Bilstein 5160's got RID of the DW.

I am dead sure that you lift a truck 4", put +35" tires on it, and have worn BJ's, TRE's, etc, and it is going to have problems. Same conditions in stock height and the problems are no where near as prevalent.

Too many times the DW STILL shows after all the steering upgrades and fixes, a simple shock\tire change makes it all work. Why?

There are MANY variables that cause DW, some more common than others. It varies from truck to truck and year to year. You are doing the standard accepted replacements for DW. If it fixes the issue and customer is happy all is well. What do you do when all that does NOT fix the problem? What do you do when the steering is tight and it STILL has DW? Pretty sure you go to the rest of the suspension system and tires to find the problem.

 

[AEdelheit]

LOL, I would expect out of round tires to be an issue. Those should get caught almost immediately on install. It is the ones that go out of round when they get warmed up that are really tough to deal with. Sorry, in practical application the failure rate on a normal sized D rated tire on these trucks are much higher than an E rates one. Trying to compare a D rated 37 to a standard size tire is another failure that won't yield comparable results. Put a 265/70/17 D rated tire in typical usage mix and it is a much different story. NOW you have to deal with the stock design and not upgraded components that you had to install to run that bigger tire and the variance gets much wider.

Add to that these trucks running around with 37's are not stressing the tires like most of us are with closer to stock size, heavy loads, and less than adequate roads. Pretty much guarantee those D rated 37's would not be so great with a 12k trailer on them in the constant high heat rough road conditions. Usage plays a large part in how a tire stands up to usage, even the E rated tires take a bad enough beating to cause them to fail.

Even with stock components if everything is tight you should be able to run a 37" D rated tire with no issues, seen it done. Totally agree E rated tires are a better option especially for heavy loads but the blank statement of "What is the tire rating? E's only, if you have D rated tires you are just wasting your time " is a poor statement and immediately saying blame the tires with no diagnosing is a good way to wast money.

Direct contradictory statement. If the steering wheel doesn't move how do you know there is bump steer? Take a good look under the new trucks and see what Ram has done to combat the inherent design problems. Better yet, build yourself a cross over steering and relocate that track bar to where it does the most good and see what does for handling on a lifted big tire truck.

I am really trying to follow your logic but its not making sense. I am familiar with the front end of these trucks both the 4 link and radius arm setups, its great that Ram put the Draglink all the way the the knuckle, also helps with the tie rod rotation but the radius arm truck still have DW. Granted doesnt seem to be near the issue of the earlier trucks but thats also largely due to the increase in the diameter of the Track bar, Drag Link and Tie Rod.

So your saying that a truck can hit a bump, compress the suspension on both sides, then individual sides just fine but if a shock is bad then suddenly the track bar and draglink are somehow no longer parallel???? If the track bar and draglink are parallel and there is no bumpsteer, well minimal bump steer since the drag link and track bar are different lengths so they cant be truly parallel through out travel, then that relationship wont change unless a mounting location is change. I have seen trucks with DW where the axle is not moving up and down just the tires side to side.

Funny you mention the crossover steering since the drop track bar bracket just got done at laser cutting for prototyping a crossover steering that will work from stock height up. Next week we will be machining the no drill taper pin adapter for the passenger side knuckle, pretty excited to see it all done.

Did you try replacing shocks to see the effect? Note, when I talk about shocks it is the ones at each corner and the one(s) on the tie rod. I have. Granted the BJ's needed replaced and the tires were JUNK but adding a good steering shock and a set of Bilstein 5160's got RID of the DW.

I am dead sure that you lift a truck 4", put +35" tires on it, and have worn BJ's, TRE's, etc, and it is going to have problems. Same conditions in stock height and the problems are no where near as prevalent.

Too many times the DW STILL shows after all the steering upgrades and fixes, a simple shock\tire change makes it all work. Why?

There are MANY variables that cause DW, some more common than others. It varies from truck to truck and year to year. You are doing the standard accepted replacements for DW. If it fixes the issue and customer is happy all is well. What do you do when all that does NOT fix the problem? What do you do when the steering is tight and it STILL has DW? Pretty sure you go to the rest of the suspension system and tires to find the problem.

Interesting you talk about the steering damper as a DW fix, I see it as a patch. A truck should be able to drive well with no DW and no steering damper, granted the damper helps dampen quick movements and I agree a truck should have one but it should not be needed.

I am confused by your second paragraph as it contradicts your previous statement that shocks cause DW , of course it will be more prevalent on a lifted truck then a stock height as the track bar and drag link are at a steeper angle and have increased leverage on them.

If everything in the steering system has been checked out then sure Ill go to tires as I mentioned before regarding a good quality tire, I have seen many tires that are fine untill the 30k mile mark or so then heave issues, I dont recall ever saying tires cant cause DW and If It came across that way my apologizes it was not intended. Past that, well the only time I have seen those items not fix the problem it turned out someone did not properly install some parts that were already checked and that was the issue.

 

[cerberusiam]

Even with stock components if everything is tight you should be able to run a 37" D rated tire with no issues, seen it done. Totally agree E rated tires are a better option especially for heavy loads but the blank statement of "What is the tire rating? E's only, if you have D rated tires you are just wasting your time " is a poor statement and immediately saying blame the tires with no diagnosing is a good way to wast money.

I don't disagree you can run a 37" D rated tire on an empty truck successfully. However, that is not a 31-33" D rated tire. Few of those tires will meet the quality the 37 has to meet to NOT be a total piece of junk. The run of the mill D rated tires are just not suited to a vehicle with the load ratings these trucks have, not to mention what they are subject to. I will clarify that as it is a bit broad, a D rated tire on a truck hauling a 12k trailer is not a good idea. SOME type of problem is going to rear its ugly head in that scenario.

You are not going to run a 37" tire with stock components, it won't work. At a minimum there is a lift, control arms, and wheels to make them fit correctly. If the lift, control arms, and wheels are done correctly with high quality parts, even with the change in the attack angle on the ground, it has drastically changed the behavior of the suspension. It can make it worse or it can make it better depending on choices. Still not a fair comparison to the stock system though.

Granted doesnt seem to be near the issue of the earlier trucks but thats also largely due to the increase in the diameter of the Track bar, Drag Link and Tie Rod.

The new system is far from perfect but it is a step in the right direction. The shape and angles of the track bar and tie rod have changed enough it eliminates a lot of the earlier issues across a broader range of suspension travel. Not going to stop the DW you are talking about with loose steering components and loose track bar mounts that will let it go into a horizontal shimmy. However, a lot of that can be eliminated with a much solider track bar mount and\or dampers. The reason that horizontal shimmy happens is the track bar mounts themselves, NVH has dictated the track bar isolates the front axle as much as possible. Those rubber mounts are soft enough to allow more horizontal movement than is really good in extreme situations. In normal usage it is fine but it does not take much with large tires and heavy weight to get excess sideways movement. The angles just enhance the process when it happens. It is the same concept as the vertical bounce with tires and shocks, rapid sharp force start a process that is just accelerated and compounded beyond the ability of components to control. The typical fix is replace one end with a heim and the other with poly bushings. That helps to a degree but there is still movement there with the poly bushings on the frame end. Replace them with a hard rubber or solid mount and you could likely run without a steering damper, given everything else is good.

So your saying that a truck can hit a bump, compress the suspension on both sides, then individual sides just fine but if a shock is bad then suddenly the track bar and draglink are somehow no longer parallel????

No, it is when the suspension cycles differently side to side that induces problems. Almost never going to see these sharp forces equally applied to tires at road speed. It almost always one side or the other changes position rapidly. When the suspension cycles unevenly you get pry on the steering or bump steer. Depending on the condition of ALL the parts it could induce either a horizontal shimmy or a vertical oscillation. It is never all one way or another and it is never the same, end sup being a very specific set of circumstances that cause the issues.

I am confused by your second paragraph as it contradicts your previous statement that shocks cause DW , of course it will be more prevalent on a lifted truck then a stock height as the track bar and drag link are at a steeper angle and have increased leverage on them.

The lift kits not only change the suspension geometry, they change the spring response. You can't JUST lift it with springs, the rates and travel MUST change to compensate for the height. More compression up and down and the energy released goes up. If the shocks cannot handle the increased energy the rebound gets out of hand, same as the tires. It is all about how much energy is stored and how it is released to manage the suspension movement. With the stock system it will hit coil bind and bump stops at the extreme. With a 4" lift to get to that point requires exponentially more energy and it has to be managed. If not, the whole system goes into uncontrolled movement, the pivot point on the track bar transfers to the other side and it responds the same way.

Shocks wear out, that is why the high end ones are re-buildable. A worn King shock in the right conditions is not going to handle the energy like a new one.

 

[AEdelheit]

Well we obviously disagree on a few points and I have much better things to do as I'm sure you do to, have a fantastic day!

 

[Regcabguy]

The one time I had DW was with improperly balanced Toyo AT's,E rated. Balance and a quality tire are critical on these trucks.
I had D rated Bridgestones on my 2nd gen that had more than their share of cuts,flats and finally a near catastrophic blowout resulting in $3300 damage in seconds.
Since running Toyo E rated products I've one flat in nine years and zero DW.
I suspect that if an E rated 37" Yoko or 37" Toyo RT was available most guys would pay the difference over the E.

 

[cerberusiam]

Disagreement is not bad. It fosters progress.

 

[AEdelheit]

Disagreement is not bad. It fosters progress.

Totally agree!!!!

Unless its on another forum cough CF cough and its people with no clue what they are talking about...........