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I would like to upgrade my 2008 Ram 2500 4x4. What I am looking to do is add a tuner and delete the EGR and Throttle Valve and maybe eliminate the DPF. What I have found in my research is to buy a Superchips 3855 Flashpaq, Sinister Diesel Throttle Valve, and a Sinister EGR Delete Kit. I do not pretend to know a lot about the 6.7 but I do know there are ways to have them run better and give better mileage. I am asking for your opinions on what I have found and are these the products that are right for our trucks. If not I would love your suggestions. I have a stock truck that I use to pull a 27ft. camper and would be very happy to increase my fuel mileage. Thanks for all your help :)
 
I dont like anything superchips and I have never heard of superchips doing delets. Get efilive and a 4"turbo back exhaust for a 03-06 and get rid of all the junk. I havnt done any egr or tv delets because none of my customers wanted to do them. All of their pickups have worked just fine with those pieces on there. But, I know you want all the junk off the exhaust. Also get the CSP5 switch
 
You won't be able to remove the EGR without setting off a bunch of codes with the Superchips.
You will need to get either: EFI Live, H&S Mini or XRT, Race ME, or an older Smarty ME to remove components code free
 
I had a Smarty but swtiched to EFI Live when it became available. Night and day difference with a good tuner.
 
I just deleted my 2008 Dodge 4X4 with a tuner with the csp5 switch and a 4" exhaust from the turbo back from Anarchy Diesel. Everything has worked out just as they (Phil) said it would. I didn't delete the throttle valve but did delete the egr with a kit from Sinister Diesel. Give Phil a call. I'm sure he'll answer any questions you have. Cheers.
 
I finally removed my erg and dpf. Used a Sinister delete and a raceme tuner., replaced exhaust from turbo back with 4" My 2011 has 214k and it has made a difference in the get up and go. Fuel mileage is alittle better about 2 mpg, hoping it keeps rolling like it has...
 
The next problem will be the head gasket. Better get a blow off valve on the EGR circuit\lose the stock turbo or you will getting studs, HG, and milling the head.
 
The next problem will be the head gasket. Better get a blow off valve on the EGR circuit\lose the stock turbo or you will getting studs, HG, and milling the head.

Why did you make this statement! Is this from experience or just internet rumor; I know that you do have some experience and contribute to the TDR mag but.

I do have some experience with the 6.7L and being deleted; I bought my truck new in Nov 07. I have been deleted since Aug of 09 and now have 62,000 trouble free miles. Before I deleted I have had 5 trips to the dealer for CELS/warranty recalls for the emission with in the first 1 ½ of ownership; after I deleted no issues what so ever. I do not have head studs installed and I have never touch the head or gasket nor do I have a waste gate valve installed. I am running the stock turbo with the EGR cooler installed but blocked. I am using a Smarty S67 set on CaTCHER level 3 which adds 60 HP/120 lb-ft of torque over stock. I tow on that level too; towing both on flat land and in the mountains. My exhaust brake is on constantly this is the first thing I turn on after the engine is started.

Now if I was on 5, 7, and or 9 CaTCHER level I would definitely have head studs and would modify the transmission at the 7 and 9 level of power settings. This is what gets most people in trouble they do not take the warning from Mads seriously and run at the higher power settings thus they have engine trouble and transmission issues.

Jim
 
As you said yourself, "Now if I was on 5, 7, and or 9 CaTCHER level I would definitely have head studs". That indicates, at the very least, you are aware that the HG has issues in certain conditions. Would feel the exact same way if it is was a 5.9? Probably not because the 5.9 did not exhibit that weakness until you went really big constant power, where the 6.7 has exhibited issues at considerably lower power levels.

There is enough data to strongly suggest that deleting the EGR uncovers a weak spot in the engine design, predominantly with the stock turbo and the stock HG. Naturally instances of failure are more prevalent with high power and certain tuners, but, there have been instances of stock and lower power problems also. Not as many, hard to compare because driving styles are so different, but the specter is there.

As to why you have ever had problems there is no concrete answer. Luck of the draw, driving style, tune design, etc., are all possible. Does not mean the NEXT guy will have the same results.

As tot he why, that is in the design of the engine and the operation of the VE turbo. The 6.7 is built on the 5.9 block with a larger bore. That has considerably reduced the amount of material between the cylinders at the head juncture. The 6.7 is also a Siamesed cylinder design where the 5.9 is not. I am sure you have heard this and accepted it, but, have you really THOUGHT about what it means THEN factored in the over all fueling and EGR operation?

Typical fueling tables and engine design is slanted toward stoich rich, the EGR us designed to replace incoming oxygen to limit cylinder pressures and temps. When you remove the EGR effect by blocking it you now have an abundance of fuel AND air which will automatically increase the cylinder temps and pressures without doing anything else. You see this with increase efficiency and mpg as a result. A typical Smarty tune will enhance this effect with timing to increase efficiency and more fuel in the lower rpms putting the TQ peak about 2000 rpms where it is the most usable. Simply by blocking the EGR the whole design has changed to where the conditions for higher cylinder pressures and temps is enhanced, adding in Smarty just enhances it that much more.

Remember, Smarty is NOT changing the base engine operational code, all it is doing is manipulating tables. The base code still THINKS it has all the installed pieces on the engine and is still operating it like an emissions engine. This is where things starting getting off track because there is not good way to manipulate the VE programming and operation, it still works like it did stock. The problem s the tendency of the turbo to shut the exhaust flow way down when lifting off the throttle, it essence is slamming the control down to very small sizes, the minimum on that turbo is 3 cm^3.

We already know the CR fueling system does not chop fuel as soon as the throttle is lifted, the FCA cannot back rail pressure off that fast, etc. So now you have the conditions where there is more air and fuel, EGR is absent for a control medium, and the turbo severely limits exhaust flow. So what happens when you throw a lot of air and fuel into a cylinder that has a restricted out flow? If nothing else we have learned the results of that operation in a diesel engine over the years, sometimes we just don't stop to think about it from that perspective.

Now we have conditions that we have been dealing with for years with few consequences, the 5.9 just does not have issues with this scenario unless it is aggravated to the extreme. The 6.7 is NOT the 5.9, worth saying again, the 6.7 is NOT the 5.9. The why is the block design itself, simaesed cylinders and larger bore on the same block. Larger bore means less material between cylinders for head gasket and more pressure on the head from larger bore. Now the crux of matter, what happens to expansion rates when only 2 sides of a cylinder are cooled? Short answer is they expand at different rates under heat and pressure. What happens to gaskets to a thin gasket when they constantly get pulled and stretched unevenly? What happens to clearances between head and block when the expansion is uneven due to differences in cooling?

The removal and deleting of the EGR has created a perfect storm of sequences that have been proven to cause failures, the big unknown in there is driving style. THAT in itself has some major contributions that simply cannot be quantified and applied to all circumstances. All I can tell you is the mechanics of the failures have been defined and most of the fixes found to counteract the source. I can tell you it is not a myth. I cannot tell you when and if a particular truck is going to have a failure, too many variables to predict it that close.
 
As you said yourself, "Now if I was on 5, 7, and or 9 CaTCHER level I would definitely have head studs". That indicates, at the very least, you are aware that the HG has issues in certain conditions. Would feel the exact same way if it is was a 5.9? Probably not because the 5.9 did not exhibit that weakness until you went really big constant power, where the 6.7 has exhibited issues at considerably lower power levels. My son has head studs on his 5.9L is was using the Smarty on CaTCHER level 5. Now he is using EFILive. He has already rebuilt the engine with only 26,000 miles on the 2006 truck.

There is enough data to strongly suggest that deleting the EGR uncovers a weak spot in the engine design, predominantly with the stock turbo and the stock HG. Naturally instances of failure are more prevalent with high power and certain tuners, but, there have been instances of stock and lower power problems also. Not as many, hard to compare because driving styles are so different, but the specter is there. I agree but I also think everyone should have gauges installed to what your Boost Pressure and EGT's.

As to why you have ever had problems there is no concrete answer. Luck of the draw, driving style, tune design, etc., are all possible. Does not mean the NEXT guy will have the same results. I try to keep my Boost pressure under 30PSI at all times some times I have almost reached 35PSI when towing in the mountains. I also watch the EGT's very closely when towing staying under 1,000 F. Will manually shift from 6 to 5 or to 4 to keep the EGT's down and the Boost pressure under control.

As tot he why, that is in the design of the engine and the operation of the VE turbo. The 6.7 is built on the 5.9 block with a larger bore. That has considerably reduced the amount of material between the cylinders at the head juncture. The 6.7 is also a Siamesed cylinder design where the 5.9 is not. I am sure you have heard this and accepted it, but, have you really THOUGHT about what it means THEN factored in the over all fueling and EGR operation? YES I have also I am a retired engineer from Cat so I am very fimilar with diesel engines.

Typical fueling tables and engine design is slanted toward stoich rich, the EGR us designed to replace incoming oxygen to limit cylinder pressures and temps. When you remove the EGR effect by blocking it you now have an abundance of fuel AND air which will automatically increase the cylinder temps and pressures without doing anything else. You see this with increase efficiency and mpg as a result. A typical Smarty tune will enhance this effect with timing to increase efficiency and more fuel in the lower rpms putting the TQ peak about 2000 rpms where it is the most usable. Simply by blocking the EGR the whole design has changed to where the conditions for higher cylinder pressures and temps is enhanced, adding in Smarty just enhances it that much more. When I deleted the EGT'S fell off from a stock engine; I am normally lower by 200 to 400 degrees F depending on towing conditions. These temps are from my gauage but this was the same gauge set up for the first 12,,000 miles as stock. This was my baseline for comparison.

Remember, Smarty is NOT changing the base engine operational code, all it is doing is manipulating tables. The base code still THINKS it has all the installed pieces on the engine and is still operating it like an emissions engine. This is where things starting getting off track because there is not good way to manipulate the VE programming and operation, it still works like it did stock. The problem s the tendency of the turbo to shut the exhaust flow way down when lifting off the throttle, it essence is slamming the control down to very small sizes, the minimum on that turbo is 3 cm^3.

We already know the CR fueling system does not chop fuel as soon as the throttle is lifted, the FCA cannot back rail pressure off that fast, etc. So now you have the conditions where there is more air and fuel, EGR is absent for a control medium, and the turbo severely limits exhaust flow. So what happens when you throw a lot of air and fuel into a cylinder that has a restricted out flow? If nothing else we have learned the results of that operation in a diesel engine over the years, sometimes we just don't stop to think about it from that perspective.

Now we have conditions that we have been dealing with for years with few consequences, the 5.9 just does not have issues with this scenario unless it is aggravated to the extreme. The 6.7 is NOT the 5.9, worth saying again, the 6.7 is NOT the 5.9. The why is the block design itself, simaesed cylinders and larger bore on the same block. Larger bore means less material between cylinders for head gasket and more pressure on the head from larger bore. Now the crux of matter, what happens to expansion rates when only 2 sides of a cylinder are cooled? Short answer is they expand at different rates under heat and pressure. What happens to gaskets to a thin gasket when they constantly get pulled and stretched unevenly? What happens to clearances between head and block when the expansion is uneven due to differences in cooling?

The removal and deleting of the EGR has created a perfect storm of sequences that have been proven to cause failures, the big unknown in there is driving style. THAT in itself has some major contributions that simply cannot be quantified and applied to all circumstances. All I can tell you is the mechanics of the failures have been defined and most of the fixes found to counteract the source. I can tell you it is not a myth. I cannot tell you when and if a particular truck is going to have a failure, too many variables to predict it that close.


See my remarks in Red

Jim
 
I have 250k on my truck, Smarty on varying tunes since 40k. Generally run 400-450 HP tunes and tow anything from 10-15k short runs and cross country. Really, until one starts consistently exceeding 50 psi of boost and 450 HP studs are just a nice to have. The right foot is the determinating factor in engine life.

The amount of boost the truck makes doesn't play into the failures, it is off throttle operations that case most heads failures. That and EGT's. Those EGT's you saw fall off did not disappear because you deleted the EGR, they right back into heat soak and pressure in-cylinder. Timing just made it a little worse with the Smarty. This is exactly the situation that is causing the problems with HG's.
 
I have done the delete and have the JR and run varous tunes that it is capable of, for close to 100K. I tow occasionally for the farm and my 5ver and so far hadnt had any problems. I did pickup a solid 2mpg some times more if all hyway hand calculated.
 
The next problem will be the head gasket. Better get a blow off valve on the EGR circuit\lose the stock turbo or you will getting studs, HG, and milling the head.

That is so 2008-09.

I ran my Smarty on 7 most of the time and never had an issue. EFI Live is now comparable to level 7 and still don't have issues.

HG issues on the 6.7 are now nearly non-existent. The only people who blow them now are being stupid. Programming has come a long way in the past 3-4 years.
 
That is so 2008-09.

I ran my Smarty on 7 most of the time and never had an issue. EFI Live is now comparable to level 7 and still don't have issues.

HG issues on the 6.7 are now nearly non-existent. The only people who blow them now are being stupid. Programming has come a long way in the past 3-4 years.

You should tell that to all the programmed 6.7's that I have had to pull heads on:-laf
 
I for one on my last truck, 07.5 totally deleted, always below 30 psi and 1000 degrees, gentle throttle, never aggressively driven either loaded or unloaded, with studs, had to do the head gasket twice. Now the first though that you are thinking is that I'm one of those "stupid" people, but I drove that thing nicely. it was run with a smarty Jr. on Number 2 if I remember right, the setting that was the "towing" setting. I'm am very thankful that I don't have that truck anymore and the new one runs and pulls better than that one ever did and I don't have to fix it or wonder "when" my wallet will get emptied again. The deletes also did not make one bit of difference in the milage either in my case. In my honest opinion I would never do it again.
 
First I have to ask was the ERG cooler deleted also? Not blocked but totally removed from the engine?

Why! To me it seems that most of the failed head gaskets on deleted trucks have had the EGR cooler removed on the 6.7L engines. Everyone that I have asked and talk to have had the cooler removed from their trucks. My son wanted to delete mine but I said lets just block it we would get it later. So far in 60+K miles the head gasket has not failed.

Another question!

Did you maintain fuel records before and after your delete? I have and I have 7+ years of fuel records on my truck and I did improve my fuel mileage by deleting especially when towing. I gained over 2+ miles per gallon when towing; I went from an average of 9.53 to 11.62 MPG's.

Jim W.
 
First I have to ask was the ERG cooler deleted also? Not blocked but totally removed from the engine?

Why! To me it seems that most of the failed head gaskets on deleted trucks have had the EGR cooler removed on the 6.7L engines. Everyone that I have asked and talk to have had the cooler removed from their trucks. My son wanted to delete mine but I said lets just block it we would get it later. So far in 60+K miles the head gasket has not failed.

Another question!

Did you maintain fuel records before and after your delete? I have and I have 7+ years of fuel records on my truck and I did improve my fuel mileage by deleting especially when towing. I gained over 2+ miles per gallon when towing; I went from an average of 9.53 to 11.62 MPG's.

Jim W.

I did the EGR cooler delete later after the main deletes since at the time I just wanted to "clean up" the engine bay and get rid of unneeded stuff and it was after that, about 2 years, that the head gasket erupted. At the time, at least to me, it wasn't common knowledge on the web that removing the EGR cooler would cause the head gasket problem. I didn't keep a log book for the milage, just was aware of how many km's I got per tank and it didn't change and at the time. I was quite unhappy because the guys that I'd been talking to at NADP were making comments like 5-9 mpg better and I got nothing, just lost my warrentte since the truck only had 10,000 km's on it at the time.
 
See my remarks in Red

Jim

Where is the info on what temps to stay below?

I have a 2011 now but my 04.5 EGT pulling was over 1000 EGT in mountains. When I had Turbo replaced increased size from 53 to 55 and EGT temps dropped.

My 2011 is mostly stock for now still under warranty.
 
Where is the info on what temps to stay below?

I have a 2011 now but my 04.5 EGT pulling was over 1000 EGT in mountains. When I had Turbo replaced increased size from 53 to 55 and EGT temps dropped.

My 2011 is mostly stock for now still under warranty.

I am a retired engineer who use to work in the heavy machine equipment design and am very familiar with diesel engines design parameters.
That's my background OK!

Now most users who modified the 5.9L engines were almost always warn to keep the EGT's under control and not to go above 1250F. That was a safe limit for EGT’s temps on the Cummins engine and boost pressure was also establish at a safe limit which is in the booklet also. Even though I have a 6.7L engine I choose to use the limits that where establish for the 5.9L by users on this WEB site and published in the Turbo Diesel Buyers Guide.

This information is readily available in the Turbo Diesel Buyers Guide starting on page 50 under the title Performance Enhancements 1989-Current. This is what provided me with my Data points for my modified truck. This is free to download and is on the LH side column which every Ram owner should read.

Now a Stock 2007.5 and up equipped with the DPF in regeneration mode can and will see EGT’s in the 1450F especially when towing. I and several others have seen this before we have deleted. These temps are OK on a stock truck since the engine was designed to handle these temperatures.

The first item anyone should buy for their Turbo Diesel should be a good set of gauges or the EDGE Insight Monitor to establish a base line for their truck to read the EGT's Boost and other operating parameters.

Just my $0.02

Jim
 
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