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Has anyone actually verified that the failure in the VP's are the over cooked electronics or could it be the magnetic pickup that the module is wired to?



I took my last VP apart ( second one in a year/ 20k miles each) before turning it in for a core and realized that the internal sensing pickup could be the problem. Many cars and trucks have had problems with antilock wheel sensors and the powerstroke boys have inherent problems with their cam sensors... . same concept is inside the VP44 ( exciter ring+magnetic pickup )



Not saying the overheated fuel isnt a problem but maybe its cooking the pickup/sensor and we are replacing VP44's because of a $2 sensor that no one is fessing up to.



Has anyone had a rebuilder of a VP44 give a straight answer on what was actually wrong with the defect VP's?
 
GWedekind said:
Has anyone actually verified that the failure in the VP's are the over cooked electronics or could it be the magnetic pickup that the module is wired to?



I took my last VP apart ( second one in a year/ 20k miles each) before turning it in for a core and realized that the internal sensing pickup could be the problem. Many cars and trucks have had problems with antilock wheel sensors and the powerstroke boys have inherent problems with their cam sensors... . same concept is inside the VP44 ( exciter ring+magnetic pickup )



Not saying the overheated fuel isnt a problem but maybe its cooking the pickup/sensor and we are replacing VP44's because of a $2 sensor that no one is fessing up to.



Has anyone had a rebuilder of a VP44 give a straight answer on what was actually wrong with the defect VP's?



VP-44's can, and DO fail from a wide variety of causes, both mechanical and electronic - these temperature related threads are only ONE approach to address part of the electronics related issue, and should not be considered a "cure-all" for ALL failures.



There are still issues of supply fuel pressure, fuel purity and fuel lubricity - these topics are covered on other threads.
 
Lets say for sake of argument that we now have FP gauges, good supply volume/pressure and going forward still have failures. Lets say that electrical issues seem to be the culprit.



Has anyone done a failure analysis on the "electrical" defects?





Back to the module... ... I was told that the module can only be replaced on the test bench. From what I saw, once the cover bolts come off and you lift the module out of the way there are only two small screws holding the mag pickup down and with those two screws removed the module which is attached to the mag pickup by two small wires comes out very easily.



So... ... ..... could this module be changed out while still on the truck and at a whole lot less.
 
GWedekind said:
Lets say for sake of argument that we now have FP gauges, good supply volume/pressure and going forward still have failures. Lets say that electrical issues seem to be the culprit.



Has anyone done a failure analysis on the "electrical" defects?





Back to the module... ... I was told that the module can only be replaced on the test bench. From what I saw, once the cover bolts come off and you lift the module out of the way there are only two small screws holding the mag pickup down and with those two screws removed the module which is attached to the mag pickup by two small wires comes out very easily.



So... ... ..... could this module be changed out while still on the truck and at a whole lot less.



IF private parties could buy the boards (Bosch only sells to authorized service centers), you'd still be left with the need for a VP-44 test stand and know-how to tune the board to a specific pump - or so I'm told... ;)
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
IF private parties could buy the boards (Bosch only sells to authorized service centers), you'd still be left with the need for a VP-44 test stand and know-how to tune the board to a specific pump - or so I'm told... ;)



HMMMMMMMMM



Do you REALLY need a test stand to unbolt and bolt in the board???? The only thing holding it down are the cover screws and the wire pickup.



Here is a picture of the top cover removed and the parts I was referring to. ( hope this works. . if not I will try and upload pics again )
 
So lets say that you do need a test stand to install the module and a test stand will cost $30,000. We have how many TDR members?? If a 1000 of us put $30 each into a mutual pot and bought a test bench we could do our own failure analysis, experiments and repairs. Not to mention we could buy VP44 parts at wholesale. At $1000-$1200 a pop for a reman VP44 I bet that 30% is profit 10-20% labor and say 50% parts. That 50% of parts is a new housing, new module and ??? So could the module cost $200-$300? Alot cheaper than a whole VP44 rebuild.
 
HMMMMMMMMM



Do you REALLY need a test stand to unbolt and bolt in the board???? The only thing holding it down are the cover screws and the wire pickup.





I think you may misunderstand the function of the test stand - it's purpose is not simply as a workbench for assembly/disassembly of the VP-44 - shucks, any 10 year old kid could take one apart on the back steps.



Rather, it's function is to actually physically install and operate the VP-44 in what mimics actual vehicle operation, as various test instruments analyze and display various VP internal electronic timing and injection parameters.



Presumably, this same test stand also then takes the information obtained, and is capable of adjusting the VP's internal computer controller for proper calibration to an established Bosch specification - all this supposedly takes a couple of hours operation for each VP-44 under test - either as a part of calibration after rebuilding, or analysis of one just being tested.



Sure, you COULD send in a questionable VP-44 just for a test - but the cost is high enough just for that test, that most guys just go ahead and replace the whole VP-44.



Is it possible for just any private individual to buy a VP-44 test stand, and get the training to properly operate it - and then would Bosch sell him the parts needed to begin work out in his garage?



I sorta doubt it.
 
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I think the test stand runs about $250k and that was a couple of years ago.



Then would Bosch play? etc etc etc.



------------------------------------



SE TDR is having a meeting at the SE Power facility in Tampa on June 17 and I wanted to place an order to be picked up then.



I just got off the phone with SE-Power Tampa parts manager Mike Franke. He has been in the diesel / injection pump / turbo arena for a long time. Of course the discussion turned to VP44's.



I'll try to be brief (yeah right)



Keys to VP44's



Psi 13. 5 exact as high as 18 psi as low as 10 psi. Some guys are having hard starting problems when the psi is too high (over 18 psi) generally with electrical pump systems. We chatted about the RASP and he thought that was a good system as the pressures come up as the engine starts and would prevent the hard starting problems. I told him about the lp backup off the Hobbs switch and he thought that was a good idea. As I described the RASP, he said "oh, like the circle track cars have".



Volume The pump is cooled with fuel at the right psi and PLEANTY of volume. You can not have too much volume at the RIGHT psi. The FASS 150 gallon pumps are overkill, but you really can not have too much volume.



Filter a must to provide "free water" free fuel, and as clean as you can get it but certainly at least 10um. The cleaner the better.



Additives the VP44's seem to have less mechanical malfunction if the lubricity of the fuel is paid attention to. "You know we sell additives", but the newer fuels may well need owner intervention to keep mechanical failures down.



Cooling The tank is the heat sink for the VP44. Before a PSG (Pump Support Group, the electronic board) fails from heat the VP has internal heat damage to do with seals. He is going to get me the exact temp the test stand is calibrated to (ie the optimum fuel temperature). The test stand has a tower cooler to ensure the fuel supplied is at the exact correct temperature for calibration. Cooler fuel (cooler temperatures) keeps the internal stresses of the VP44 down.



We chatted and he said the first VP change outs were generally (for '02's) 60k - 90k (mine was at 53k, a little early). The VP44's have had several upgrades and tweaks to the mechanical internals and several software upgrades that the current VP44 rebuilds are running 120k - 180k before failure.



He emphasized the one of the big problems was DC did not tell owners how to take care of the pumps in the first place.



For Gary - A 0216 is a processing failure in the timing. It generally is not because of the PSG, but because there is a failure in the internal mechanical timing tolerances and the PSG is mearly reporting it. Not necessarily an electronic board problem. However it does not bode well for the pump as a mechanical internal mechanism is going into failure mode. Generally there will be further internal damage until the pump is rendered inoperative.



I asked him about keeping the pump cool. He said they have several fuel cooling options and have had good experiences with them. As with any mechanical mechanism the more friendly the environment it is running in the better it generally runs. He said the FASS systems (they are not resellers of FASS, but have installed several of them) returns the return fuel to the tank filler and that helps in distributing the return fuel heat to the total tank fuel mass (so does the RASP return fuel to the tank filler). I told him I could keep the fuel temp to about OAT +10* and he thought that is certainly not hurting the pump and probably helps mainly in the operating of the VP internal mechanical tolerances and lubrication.



He also had a bulletin from Bosch that talked to "alternative fuels" for the VP44. Bosch says no alternaltive fuels that are not commercially made with commercial fuel standards. No WVO etc. However, commecial biodiesel up to B5 has some discussion and I will get that bulletin from Bosch on the 17th and will get that paragraph exactely verbatium.



So that was fun! Those guys are so knowledgable it is unbelievable (as are the Schied's, Pier's, Industrial Injection's, etc etc). It is like they know what the failure patterns are, what causes them, and what you can do about them. There are still going to be failures as in anything, but at least we have a reasonable chance.



Bob Weis



Oh, he thought misting was overkill (ie OAT +10* was fine), but would not hurt anything if I wanted to do it (and I do). I want OAT +0* in every condition (90 mph (I do not go that fast by any means), towing, doing whatever you could think of doing with our trucks) in the summer to not go above 100* fuel input temp.



If anyone wants to go with our SETDR to SE-Power Tampa, on the June 17th , and are not from here (central FL) and needs a place to stay, you are welcome to stay at our house for a day or two. Pm or email me.
 
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All GREAT info - thanks Bob!



THIS is personally troubling:



For Gary - A 0216 is a processing failure in the timing. It generally is not because of the PSG, but because there is a failure in the internal mechanical timing tolerances and the PSG is mearly reporting it. Not necessarily an electronic board problem. However it does not bode well for the pump as a mechanical internal mechanism is going into failure mode. Generally there will be further internal damage until the pump is rendered inoperative.



Mainly because I have religiously used fuel additives in this truck from day one - and would not expect lubricity related problem. Electronics, perhaps, but NOT mechanical/lube related ones!



I'll have to ponder that one for a while... :confused:
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
All GREAT info - thanks Bob!



THIS is personally troubling:



Mainly because I have religiously used fuel additives in this truck from day one - and would not expect lubricity related problem. Electronics, perhaps, but NOT mechanical/lube related ones!



I'll have to ponder that one for a while... :confused
:





This is my point... . if mechanical issues are NOT the problem its gotta be the module or pickup.



Then, do we really know for sure that we MUST use a test bench to replace and calibrate the module. To be convinced I would want to see how its done.
 
Mike Franke at southeast power impressed me when I spoke with him. He definately knows his stuff. It makes sense that if the tolerances are worn it could cause problems but Im just having a hard time with this whole "electronics thing" without seeing a complete failure analysis.



Maybe we can ask Mike to help us quantify the failures he is seeing and then isolate the ones that are not mechanical tolerance issues and break it down from there ( Desoldered connections, failed electronic chips or magnetic pickup failures etc).
 
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