Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Diesel Transfer Pump Diagnosis-The Latest!

[Thomas]

Here is how DC is diagnosing transfer (lift) pumps as of 11 April 2003: TSB 14-002-03 (thanks Dave Fritz).

 

[rashwor]

Sounds like they solved the problem...

of spending too much $$$ on warranty lift pump replacements. Basically what I got out of it was that if you get 45 oz in 25 seconds, everything is fine. 5# of pressure is fine as long as you get 45 oz of fuel in the allotted time. Low pressure claims won't get you a new pump now and instead of 5 seconds to pressure test, it will take one hour to flow test according to this.

 

[Rockcrusher]

If they can't spell simple four letter words, how can they resolve seriouys problems?

 

[RobbyRam]

I know, since March, we can no longer say: 'Stea... ship!,' So, I will initiate a new term, yet to be 'banned:"Gouge-er-ship. " For example: A fuel filter at the parts counter at an unnamed 'gouge-er-ship' dealership: $45. 00 + tax, not even installed! At Cummins West: $17. 00 with my 'Power Store discount!'



At 'Pro Fleet Big Rig Oil Change 'on HWY 99, $17. 00 for a Baldwin Fuel Filter, INCLUDING INSTALLATION LABOR!!' BTW, it's the same exact filter as I would get from the Dodge 'gouge-er-ship' dealership Of course, the Dodge dealer has our best intrests in mind!

Bob in Sacramento

 

[fox]

They finally came up witha decent pump test.

You must test volume and pressure together.



LOL--- 7-a use a test light to check current flow!!!!!

The test light checks voltage presence. The only current flow will be thru the light.

No wonder we have issues with the electrical systems.

 

[Sticks]

Hey, at least it's a start. 5#'s IMO is still way to low, but it is still volume that counts. 1. 5 GPM (average household water tap flow rate) at 5psi is still better than . 5 GPM @ 5psi. I may just go out and do this little test myself.



The only way we could know if this is still OK, is finding out how much the VP44 puts out at WOT. Think about it. If you turn on your kitchen sink faucet full blast, that is what they say our minimum fuel pump flow should be. Effectively draining our fuel tanks in slightly under half an hour (23 minutes).



Sounds like we still need to have a bigger fuel line at least between the filter and the VP44. Maybe 1"??



I do know one thing, if my truck ever goes in for this test, there will be a filter provided for them, and I will politely ask the tech to let me know before it gets changed, so I can do it myself and save the $60 they may charge me for the service. Of course I will have already performed their test at home before I bring it in... . $crew it. My call, my dollar, I'll still eat the money on the new LP, and do it myself. I will just make sure I document everything in case it caused my VP to implode, and save teh receipt and bad LP incase they want to check it.



EDIT - I apologize to anyone who read this post prior to my edit. I should know better than to do complex math before my coffee has kicked in. Suffice to say my math was way off. The actual flow according to the DC TSB is . 75 GPM, which is still a fair amount, but could very well not be enough. I was basing my math on a gallon being 64 oz, not 128, so all of the figures are off by 50% so double everything.



Sticks

 

[JCyrbok]

WOW!

Thats about all I can say! 5psi at idle would be like -10 at WOT on my truck, since I get 12 on a good day at idle and can pull it down to 5psi at WOT.



BTW I have a stock truck!!!!



Looks like they will probably get out of VP warranty service too on this one by saying that the LP is fine!



J-

 

[15w40]

A stock engine only requires about 45 gallons per hour. Bosch, the maker of the VP-44, says the injection pump is happy with an inlet fuel pressure between -2 psi to about 17 psi. I believe that DC is getting tired of replacing the lift pumps and is trying to limit the expense of repeated pump failures. I am sure the cost to DC to replace a lift pump is a lot more than the price of the pump and is just another expense that drags down corporate profit. The average pump seems to last about 50K miles and will only require 1 replacement in the 100K warrantee.



It is we bombers that actually measure the fuel pressure and demand replacement at the first signs of a problem. Any truck with HP enhancements will easily draw the pressure down because of the increase in demand from the VP-44. Most stock trucks will not have any bombs or even a fuel pressure gauge. These owners will only complain when the engine misbehaves. The lift pumps maybe completely dead, for thousands of miles, before a problem surfaces.

 

[RobbyRam]

This whole thread' and many other similar 'threads' should not even exist if Dodge and Cummins had their act together!

My next truck will be a '1974 International Harvester' The best truck ever made!

Bob in Sacramento

 

[fox]

RobbyRam you should scratch the Cummins from your statement. Dodge supplys the lift pump.

Can you bring your/a 74 International harvester truck and tow my trailer? Did you plan to enter it in a sled pull!!!

Those trucks may have been over built in there day but---- they never got a torquey Cummins.

 

[RobbyRam]

Fox,

You have a good point! But I don't want to do 'sled pulls. '

I just want my truck to start up every day and go to work. Is that too much to ask after spending $41K?

Bob in Sacramento

 

[Sticks]

To quote the BOMBers oath,



"I am my own warranty station, if I want to play, I will have to pay. "



Fuel pumps fail, period. If it is mechanical or electrical it will eventually stop working. Cars, trucks, and a few motorcycles all suffer from this affliction. Nobody likes it, and a few have it happen more often than it should. DC has a problem and it is by design, and what ever agreement they have with Cummins who attaches the pump to the side of the motor, rather than in or by the fuel tank. Lifetime functionality, no way. As long as a stock truck if I so much as tweak the timing, no way.



The millionth CTD Dodge just rolled off the assembly line (or will shortly). 1,000,000 fuel pumps out there, and I only know of 16,000 - 1. 6% that are aware of the potential failure and are willing to take a position on it. The rest go on with their happy little lives and just shrug their shoulders when the truck does not start one day and have it fixed. Life goes on, and the corp-rats keep getting their bonuses and weekends in Aspen.



If you are a dedicated vehicle owner, you either belong to an owners group, or keep up with the info on it. The first time we tweak something into a different design other than what rolled off the assembly line, we accepted the risk that the vehicle will no longer perform to what the manufacturer said it will.



Gasser cars have the same problem. There is no such thing as a 100k spark plug, yet a great many of the new cars proclaim that you will not have to change them until 100k under "normal" driving conditions. I have personally changed the plugs that were up to . 07 inches out of gap at only 40k miles on some of these 100k tune up free guarantee cars, driven by mom and dad "normally".



Stick a Dodge CTD on a set of rollers, start the engine, set the cruise at 60 mph (70 if it has 3. 54 in the rear), give it an indefinite supply of fuel, an oil dialysis machine, and it will probably run 1 million miles before anything decides it has had enough of this and quit. Started once, and never shut down, no stop and go, no temperature variations, no egos or loose nuts behind the wheel plugging this in, cutting this off, or trading out parts. No racing when the driver is late for work one crispy January morning, foregoing the warm up, and the block heater. No pulling 12,000 pounds of not very aerodynamic living space up a 7% grade at 10k feet and 90 degrees outside. I think we are getting a hell of a deal when they give us 10% of that for what we do to them.



Pick your fights, and know when to bite the bullet and point the finger at yourself. We all know the risks of adding injectors, or boxes. Are we all prepared for the consequences?



Sorry, time for someone to go to bed now.

 

[kaffine krazed]

You guys need to go and read that TSB again.



That 5psi that they are refering to is fuel filter restriction. The engine is not running during the test. The fuel line after the fuel filter is disconnected and lengthed to reach a diesel can then the starter is bumb causing the lift pump to run for 26 seconds. While the lift pump is running with the line on the clean side of the fuel filter in a bucket you watch the pressure gauge before the fuel filter if you see more than 5psi the filter is plugged.



The 5psi is being caused by a dirty fuel filter it is not the max pressure the lift pump can put out. Pressure is caused by resistance to flow. The fuel line is open ended letting the fuel go right into a bucket with the only resistance being the fuel filter and the slight resistance caused by the lines and fittings. To test the max pressure the lift pump can generate you would have to plug off the line.



I'm glad I work on Freightliners now instead of Dodges

 

[MCummings]

Originally posted by sticks

no egos or loose nuts behind the wheel plugging this in, cutting this off, or trading out parts. No racing when the driver is late for work one crispy January morning, foregoing the warm up, and the block heater. No pulling 12,000 pounds of not very aerodynamic living space up a 7% grade at 10k feet and 90 degrees outside.

Hey,, When did this topic drift to start talking about me? Stay on topic! :-laf



kaffine krazed - Good point,, I think the method of that test is easily over-looked. I would imagine most "techs" might read it that way too. 5PSI is filter restriction, not pump output.



So, the problem stands with serious BOMBers,, we need a pump to put out 15PSI, and well over 45GPM.

15PSI, and 80GPH, Diesel compatible, 100% duty cycle, and 4,000Hours+ life?



Merrick Cummings Jr

 

[WestTN]

5 psi test

I think you're missing something about this checking for 5 psi. What they are doing is verifying there is no more than 5 psi pressure drop across the filter element. Notice it says to change the filter if there is more than 5 psi at the inlet whle the outlet is free-flowing. This is a good way to test.