Dirty oil vs clean oil

[GTOWag]

I have a 2004. 5 3500 RAM and my cousin has an earlier 2004 3500 RAM. He constantly brags about how clean is oil is compared to mine, which has been black since day one. I remember reading something about this in TDR but cannot find it now. I know there were many changes for the 2004. 5 Ram but I can't find anything that specifically states the reason for sooty oil in the 2004. 5 engines.



Does anyone have a reference related to this question? Thanks.

 

[cerberusiam]

The in-cylinder EGR is mostly responsible for the darker looking oil. However, the injection event shaping and higher HP also contributes.

 

[Slow Six]

My 03 had dirty oil until I removed the chip. It stayed cleaner a lot longer.

 

[DNDracing]

Does it matter how dark it is? It's doing it's job. I will take the extra horse power with a little black oil.

 

[AH64ID]

There are 4 things contributing the BLACK oil in a 04. 5-07 5. 9. The cam, turbo, pistons, and tuning all create the aforementioned in-cylinder EGR.

On my truck I have replaced the cam and turbo, and run aftermarket tuning that advances the timing and removes the 3rd injection event. The only thing left on my truck is the OEM non-reentrant pistons as far as the in-cylinder EGR is concerned. My oil is always BLACK as soon as I change it, even before starting the truck. I also run a 2um Amsoil Bypass filter.

I did a little experiment at my last oil change. Before I dumped the oil I put a 1/2 bottle of Amsoil Engine Flush in and ran it for 15 minutes. I then dumped the oil, blocked off the bypass, and changed the filter to a cheap one. I added 3 gallons of Delo, which was BLACK as soon as I checked it. I then drove it 4-5 miles to get it hot and added a full bottle of Amsoil Engine Flush. I idled it for 15 minutes and dumped the oil. I let it drain for several hours. I then changed the filter to a normal one and filled it back up with Delo again. I drove it this way for 100-150 miles and then drained it. This time it drained for a long time, with the block heater on. I also jacked up the truck front to back and side to side and got even more oil out. I also removed the valve cover and used a syringe and sucked all the dirty oil out of the brass freeze plugs on the head, and then poured about a gallon of fresh oil over the rockers and thru the head to push more dirty oil out of the block and into the pan. When I poured that oil I had the plug in the pan so the new oil was caught, I then ran the started and pushed the clean oil into the cooler and the dirty oil in the cooler out to drain. I then drained it again for a few hours until it quit dripping, with jacking it again to get more oil out (a surprising amount came out, maybe not a huge volume, but more oil did drain).

While it was draining I changed the filter to my usual Donaldson ELF7349 and hooked the bypass backup and put a new EaBP-110 on. Once the dripping stopped I put the plug back in and filled it with Amsoil AME, my usual oil. I normal put in just under 3. 5 gallons, but this time it took the full 3. 5 gallons, so I defiantly drained more than usual. After letting it run for a few minutes I checked the level, and this is what I saw.

#ad


So the oil in a 04. 5-07 CAN be made clean, but it didn't last long. When I check the oil at 50 miles it already had a minute tinge of black to it, but still very clean. I didn't get to check it again until about 1500 miles and it's back to BLACK. It's a cleaner BLACK than normal, but still nasty.

So, based on my experience it's the piston bowl design that contributes to most of the black oil.

 

[amsoilman]

Diesel Oil is going to get black no matter what kind of oil or filtration system you use. The "Black" comes from very small particles of "soot" that no filter is able to remove, as these particles are very small, much smaller than 2 MICRON, which you can't even see with the naked eye. Some oils in some engines will make the oil appear "cleaner" for a short period of time, but in the end, the oil will lbe BLACK. "Black" oil is not an indicator of the oils condition or usefulness. A "USED OIL ANALYSIS" (UOA) is a good tool to determine the oils condition and usefulness. As an example, my 2010 Dodge, has an Amsoil By-pass filtration system such as the one used on AH64ID's truck, and with 17,000 miles on the oil, the oil is very black, but the UOA that was performed at the mileage stated, the SOOT level reported was <0. 1 percent.

 

[AH64ID]

I have seen some engines go longer than OEM intervals and stay "clean" but they aren't common.

I agree UOA is the only true indicator of oil condition. My experiment was only to see how long it would stay clear, to see if it was the pistons or cam/turbo that caused the BLACK oil instantly at the change.

 

[GTOWag]

So it appears that pre 2004. 5 Rams did not use the in-cylinder EGR system. Therfore their oil stays cleaner..... correct? Did the pre 2004. 5's use any EGR at all i. e. the standard EGR valve in the intake system, like the newer 6. 7's??

I appreciate your answers. I also send oil samples to Blackstone labs every other oil change, and they have all been coming back good.

 

[AH64ID]

No the 03-04's were EGR free.

 

[CKelley1]

if you have a 04. 5 up truck you need to run a bypass oil filter. our trucks are modified similar to ah64id. we make our own bypass kits but for you the amsoil kit with the eabp-110 filter is the best choice. do not change this filter at regular oil and filter changes, the dirtier the filter gets the better it filters. simply lift the fill plug with the engine running to see if oil is still flowing. no oil, time to change. if you remove the in-cylinder egr you also get a very nice increase in mpg.

 

[pwerwagn]

There are 4 things contributing the BLACK oil in a 04. 5-07 5. 9. The cam, turbo, pistons, and tuning all create the aforementioned in-cylinder EGR.

... and run aftermarket tuning that advances the timing and removes the 3rd injection event. The only thing left on my truck is the OEM non-reentrant pistons as far as the in-cylinder EGR is concerned. My oil is always BLACK as soon as I change it, even before starting the truck. ...

What tuning are you running that removes the 3rd event? How much did it help mileage?

if you have a 04. 5 up truck you need to run a bypass oil filter. our trucks are modified similar to ah64id. we make our own bypass kits but for you the amsoil kit with the eabp-110 filter is the best choice. do not change this filter at regular oil and filter changes, the dirtier the filter gets the better it filters. simply lift the fill plug with the engine running to see if oil is still flowing. no oil, time to change. if you remove the in-cylinder egr you also get a very nice increase in mpg.

How are you removing the in-cylinder EGR?


--Jeff

 

[CKelley1]

here is a copy of a post, some of it is with ah64id. efi was not out when i did our mod so i had to leave my third event in.
Your truck uses in- cylinder egr for smog reduction. They also extend fueling duration and retard the timing to keep peak heat and pressure down. Since the third injection pulse is so late in the cycle the egt is very hot compared to a 03 but the peak temp where the no is formed is actually lower. i will try to keep it simple, the cam exhaust lobe is ground to leave burnt exhaust gas in for the next cycle. Change the cam to a pdr or colt. the hamilton is ground more for kids who are after power, we just want low end torque and mpg. Change or hone the nozzles to ddp 50 hp. get a smarty jr leave the torque set on default, timing set to 3 and on economy or sw1 as it is called. get a fbd turbo back straight pipe kit 5". get a m090072 resonator and a m090535 muffler and 4 clamps from ryder truck parts. for the first one i did it took me 5 hours. after about the 10th one i can do it in about 3 hours. it takes longer to remove the old one than you think. i install them by myself and you do not need any special tools. i have my own shop and change the cams and nozzles here. you will probably have to pay labor. Do the nozzle change at the same time as cam to save labor. Use the left over pipe to extend the exhaust out further to keep the fenders cleaner. from ah64id There is no external EGR on any 5. 9. The 04. 5-07 meet the 04 emissions by utilizing "in-cylinder" EGR. The 4 big ways this was done was cam, pistons, timing, and turbo.

The cam lobes are timed so that the intake is a longer duration, and the exhaust is very short (shorter than any other Cummins in a Dodge) and the exhaust closes sooner to keep more gasses in the cylinder, this decreases combustion temp.

The pistons are a non-reentrant design and don't promote as good of air movement and combustion, again reducing peak combustion temps (and makes the pistons really easy to melt)

The timing is retarded to again reduce peak cylinder pressure and combustion temps, and to raise the EGT's to help the Cat work.

The Turbo has a very inefficient turbine wheel and small housing, this provides backpressure on the manifold to again reduce the exhaust scavenging effect.

The 03-04 actually has the same cam, and the turbine is even smaller, but its the combo of the timing and the piston in the 04. 5-07's that completes the effect.

Personally I have changed my cam, use the Smarty Jr for timing, and will be swapping turbo's this spring. Should help clean up my oil, combustion, and power... thou it will increase the NOx effects.
flat lander it gets very confusing on the 04. 5 up with the in-cylinder egr. they delayed timing, lengthened duration and added a very late 3rd pulse this was done to keep peak pressure and peak cylinder temp down but because the fuelling is so far away from tdc the egt's appear way hotter than previous models but in actuality it is lower than previous models on the pistons. for us that want better mpg we reverse engineer the process and as we do we see the egt drop knowing we are bringing piston temp up. with the smarty jr on default tow you will have both lower egt and piston temp than earlier models. you desperately need to change your cam to a pdr or colt and get you some 50 hp nozzles from ddp. this will gain you 6 mpg and the lowest egt once the nozzles are on you need to go back to the economy setting. the 50 hp from the nozzles is kind of a unwanted byproduct of shortening the fuelling duration. With 40 hp from the jr and 50 from the nozzles it fits the air you have and is better than stock on the engine. some posting on here like to play and their requirements are different 150 hp nozzles drastically shortens duration to where the main or 2ond pulse injects the fuel just over tdc where the pressure is highest and the most efficient work is done but also produces the most piston temp. Because the fuel burns longer the egt appears lower. we tow very heavy and have many drivers. We cannot have a truck set up that you have to drive by a pyrometer. some of our older trucks have at or over 1,000,000 miles on them all of our 06's are set up this way except the one in my sig i added enough air to use tow setting. bigwheels 94 gave a good explanation on the stick timing vs size. with the new 514 smarty software the timing for 50 hp nozzles need to be set on #3. The stock turbo will work but it needs to be modified. To keep this short pm me if you want to mod the turbo. If new turbo a 62-65-12 is the size

 

[AH64ID]

It is removed by changing the cam, turbo, and tuning. Those 3 items will have the biggest effect. The piston/nozzle combo does contribute, but it does not have the in-cylinder effect like the others do, it was just part of the equation.

The OEM cam has a decent intake duration, but a short and early exhaust duration. This keeps more exhaust in the cylinder.

The turbo runs a small turbine and turbine housing, creating lots of back pressure, (1. 5 times boost is common, 2 times boost is possible) which also reduces exhaust flow and keeps more exhaust in the cylinder.

The tuning consists of 2 major items. The main injection (there are 3 OEM events) event is retarded to reduce cylinder pressure and NOx. There is also a 3rd injection event that occurs after the main one to further reduce emissions. A good tuner, such as Smarty or EFI Live will modify the timing curve to be more advanced (more like a 24V, but not the same as there is a pilot event to consider) and can remove the 3rd injection event.

The pistons and nozzles could be changed to a 03-04 style (or the very robust QSB 480 setup), but that is a lot of labor and money for really not much gain. The pistons alone don't do any in-cylinder effects, they just seem to put a little more soot into the oil than the 03-04 setup. They also won't work as well with stock or generic tuners. If you want to run an 03-04 style piston you would want to have Smarty UDC or EFI Live to properly tune the timing.

EDIT: It looks like we were typing at the same time.

Something to add about duration length. With UDC or EFI Live this can be tweaked now. The easiest was to change duration is to change the desired rail pressure for a given fuel load. I have lowered my rail pressure at low rpms, increased duration, and WOW the truck is smoother, quieter, and spools MUCH faster (hard to imagine with an already fast spooling BB setup). I also lowered the pressure at cruise rpms for less drag on the CP3, so far mileage seems to be on par or slightly better than with stock pressure at cruise but it drives MUCH better. But then as my load increases I bring in a little more pressure than stock at the 80-100% load range in the 1800-2400 rpm range for towing up grades and that shortens the duration a little for a quick powerful burn of the fuel. I did keep my limit to the stock 23,206 thou, but I gather that with the proper timing there is lots of power in adding a little pressure above stock, I just can't justify the risk on stock sticks.