Dodge vs Ford vs Chevy

[Randy]

I was at the Eastern Idaho State fair over the weekend, and they had a truck pull event. After the event, the MC said they had something special for us. They got a new 2003 4 door Ram with the Cummins, and a new 2003 4 door Duramax, and a new 2003 4 door Powerstroke from local dealers. They were bone stock. They hooked up the Duramax up first and it pull the sled about 230 ft. The Powerstroke was next and it pulled the sled a full pull, but stopped at the line as it bogged down. Then the Ram with the mighty Cummins went last after the other trucks had tore up the track, it not only made a full pull, but crossed the line at about 30-40 mph. The MC said "That should settle any further arguments as to what truck is the best puller. I guess I have the wrong truck, I own a Duramax. " I was very impressed. I have the "old" 24 valve, with a 330 HP 700 lb torque Cummins.

 

[ttreibel]

That would be some choice video.



You didn't happen to have a camera did you?



I wonder who gets to buy those trucks after the rough break-in?

 

[sdbelt]

I'll take the Ram! (for a small discount) The PowerStroke probably won't last either way. And who would want a DuraMax?

 

[KevinO]

I went to the scheid diesel extravaganza in terre haute in weekend before last. They had a bone stock 6. 0 there still had dealer plates, just wonder if the guy had it out for a weekend test drive but he challenged his buddy that just bought a 03 cummins don't know if it was a HO or not but both were automatics 3/4 ton 4 door 4x4 even same color the dodge outpulled it. The ford never did get up much speed and didn't seem like it wanted to even pull a load.

 

[Randy]

No, I didn't have a video cam. If I would have made a video, I could have showed it at the Ford and Chevy dealers and sent their customers to the Dodge dealer.

 

[CATCRACKER]

6l's and suzus are giving diesels a bad name. cummins cant pull their slack forever! the duramax's are imploding daily according to my buddy who is the service mgr at our local chevy dealer. i spoke with him today and he said that he just got a call from a man saying "that they overfilled his truck with oil"... ... ... . my buddy said "sir if your oil smells like diesel dont drive your truck! customer responds "yea it smells like diesel!"



major revisions coming for the dura in 04. 5 we will see if it helps. i hope it does b/c diesels are getting a black eye b/c of 6L and suzu.

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

The cummins power under the curve has always helped it when the going gets tough. The other manufacturers are trying to make gas engines that run on diesel. Too many rpms and torque peak too high.

 

[zari]

Nice job...

I had a lengthy discussion yesterday with the Service Director at the dealership I bought my Ram from. They sell Dodge, Ford and Chevy, and organize "Diesel Clinics" for their diesel truck owners. One item of discussion during those clinics is, of course, the very topic of this thread - mostly anecdotal (not that that's a bad thing).



To get those discussion on more "scientific gounds," they took three of their new 2003 (stock) trucks to a dyno in Omaha, NE for comparison. In the clinic, they show the graphic results of the dyno runs, and I got the actual numbers as well. Plugged them into my Excel, and put the charts as JPEGs in my picture gallery on this site. FWIW, here are links to the power and torque charts - enjoy Oo.

 

[Blakers]

Originally posted by CATCRACKER

major revisions coming for the dura in 04. 5 we will see if it helps. i hope it does b/c diesels are getting a black eye b/c of 6L and suzu.

Funny how a company (GM) can make diesels since the 30's and screw up so badly on the newest ones. I guess they should go back to make 2-cycles.

 

[Blakers]

Re: Nice job...

Originally posted by zari

FWIW, here are links to the power and torque charts - enjoy Oo.

I'd like to see the torque curves down at 1400 rpm where the cummins peaks.

 

[JPitha]

By the Numbers in the charts, looks like a S. O Cummins ??

 

[Ken F]

Re: Re: Nice job...

Originally posted by Blakers

I'd like to see the torque curves down at 1400 rpm where the cummins peaks.

I agree. Is the data available for lower RPM?



Ken.

 

[DLeno]

Re: Re: Nice job...

Originally posted by Blakers

I'd like to see the torque curves down at 1400 rpm where the cummins peaks.

The cummins doesn't have a peak in the torque curve. The maximum available torque is 555 ftp lbs at the flywheel, and thsi is flat from 1400 to 2700.



What interests me about the PSD is that the engine develops very similar max torque, but at higher rpms. Since HP is proportional to rpm times torque, the higher rpm is what gives it the higher HP.



anyone know what the stroke is on the PSD? must be shorter than the CTD and if it can develop the same torque with a shorter stroke, can you say ROD/BEARING RELIABIILTY?



oh, wait, thats already happend! see attached.

 

[Blakers]

Originally posted by DLeno

The cummins doesn't have a peak in the torque curve. The maximum available torque is 555 ftp lbs at the flywheel, and thsi is flat from 1400 to 2700.

I didn't mean that torque peaked and came back down after 1400. I just meant I'd like to see the other two engines compared to the Cummins at 1400. I don't think they'd have a chance.



Yes the other engines have a much shorter stroke and their rods are puny compared to our's. Do a search and you'll find a picture of them. Here's a picture comparing the older GM, Powerstroke and Cummins.

 

[zari]

Sorry...

... the only actual (measured) numbers I got are depicted in the chart. From what I understand though, the CTD (and, it was indeed an HO on the dyno... ) has a pretty <em>flat</em> measured curve <em>all the way across</em> the RPM range. Don't have "first hand" info the PSD or Duramax.



It's quite telling though seeing how the Duramax is nowhere near <em>flat</em> in terms of torque vs. RPM. I'll see if I can get any comparisons btw PSD and CTD for lower RPM out of them.



Alain

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

The psd is pretty peaky too. Its down 40 lb ft by the time it makes peak hp at 3300.

The cummins holds 550 at 2900. Now thats a flat curve. 52% torque rise (hope thats right). Oh yeah. Im jealous.

 

[DLeno]

Originally posted by Blakers

I didn't mean that torque peaked and came back down after 1400. I just meant I'd like to see the other two engines compared to the Cummins at 1400. I don't think they'd have a chance.



Yes the other engines have a much shorter stroke and their rods are puny compared to our's. Do a search and you'll find a picture of them. Here's a picture comparing the older GM, Powerstroke and Cummins.

ah yes thats a great pic. I have it. ok good comments to clarify too. And you're right, the other engines don't have a chance at 1400. they have to rev up to higher rpms before they are effective pullers, and that makes the 0-25 mph drivability better for the CTD in my opinion.



re: peakiness of the "other" engines. Big_daddy_T and zari, you make good points. The tremendous, flat torque curve of the CTD makes a lot of "area under the curve". That is, total power output capability across the entire rpm range. That's what differentiates a truck that races well off the line, from a truck that pulls well under all conditions and at any given speed.



In other words, the peakiness of the PDS and DMAX power curves suggest to me that they may be better in some conditions and worse in others. meaning "favorable to some test criteria". The curve of the CDT is favorable to nearly all pulling conditions and gives the driver more choices in terms of gears and speeds.



I tire of the 'measure of success' being always a race. race up a hill towing a trailer, top speed at the top, race off the line, whatever. What I'd like to see is a more comprehensive test of several more realistic conditions -- like the ability to maintain certain speeds under various towing conditions. I mean, so you're all hooked up with your 14,000 lb 5ver with the wife, dog, and kids headed for vacation. are you going to race up a hill? I hope to God no, or that at least I'm not around when you do We need to test several conditions that mimic actual towing realities. passing on a 6% grade might be one condition, but what about maintaining speed when the guy in front of you chooses your maximum speed for you? What about the abilty to maintain posted speed limits, say 55 and 65 mph over various grades and hills?

 

[zari]

Yeah, the towing "in many different conditions" is what I love about this truck. Even though I had to compromise on the transmission (automatic instead of 6-speed - wife needs to be able to drive it, and we're using it quite a bit in city traffic), I have yet to get into a situation where this truck disappoints me when pulling my 11,500# 5th wheel.



Granted, I have to get out of OD going East on I-80 between Omaha, NE and Des Moines, IA (quite hilly), but I can keep her going <em>steady</em> anywhere from 55mph to 75mph. On I-29 between Omaha, NE and Sioux Falls, SD, she goes <em>steady in OD</em> 70 - 75 mph with no sweat. Have yet to try the more demanding hills out West (WY etc. )...



Alain