Double the fuel mileage?

[TMax]

I have been hearing more and more about people using these HHO systems on their trucks and upping their mileage by 50% or more. Anyone using a Hydrogen generator on their trucks and willing to confess? You can see them at www.TNHybrids.com. I am a bit suspiscious but open minded at the same time. As long as it doesn't hurt the truck..... never hurt the truck.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Hi TMax, TDR member EricBU12 just bought a HHO generator to try, check out his thread in the Alternative Fuels forum.

 

[DHayden]

I've seen alot of claims, the only one I know of that gets factual miles is an extra 6 mpg from a honda civic. Thats not even close to 50%. Maybe they are out there but the other people I know that are working on these arent getting more than a few extra miles per gallon. Every little bit helps I guess but as far as I'm concerned the huge claims thus far are snake oil.

 

[hearingyourlies]

If it sounds too good to be true ...

 

[BZieg]

Actually my buddy made one, and put it on his 3. 0 v6 Ford Ranger he used to get 200 miles per 16 gallons of gas now he gets like 260 miles per 16 gallons of gas, no joke. It actually works well... as far in a diesel I am not sure. Even still... if you get that good of gas mileage; what else could you be hurting, combustion temps? knock? who knows. For me not worth trying unless I had a 3 cylinder P. O. S. Geo Metro or something.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

50% more does not = double

 

[RRees]

Fuel Mileage increase is a good thing, but the end result is what counts:



Cost per mile.

 

[TMax]

Forest,

I have heard reports of 100% better mileage but I was being conservative with the 50% because that's what the majority of these companies claim. I know that 50% is not "double" but it wasn't really my point. Next time I'll be a little more careful.

 

[brods]

How is this different from propane or CNG?





So many questions, like what does it do to peak combustion pressures and temperatures, what are the long term effects on the engine, how is the supply of H2 modulated, what is the required maintenance of the system, what are the total operational costs, what are the unwanted side effects (intake manifold corrosion?), what would be the worst case failure mode of the system (could it blow up like in the high school milk carton demonstration?), etc, etc.





Bottom line is:

Fuel Mileage increase is a good thing, but the end result is what counts:



Cost per mile.

It would be nice to see documented mpg increases under controlled conditions and then a detailed cost analysis for operating HHO generators that takes into account everything from the initial purchase price to consumables to labor required to service and operate the systems.

 

[geusterman]

Search under Brown's gas (guy who figgured out how to get the hydrogen out). You will find facinating YouTube films and kits from ACE Hardware.



Propane is used to assist diesel so hydrogen assist should be fine.



Let's get er done! George

 

[Little Bill]

From TNHybrids FAQ, these units only operate at 11 amps maximum when thoroughly warmed up. . 11 amp-hours will only produce 0. 41 chemical equivalents of hydrogen. That's 0. 41 grams H2 (hydrogen weighs 1). 1 gram of H2 contains 115 BTUs so there is only 47 BTU/hour supplied by a single module. You could get the Heavy Haul Q-5 Brick and up the output 5X for a total of 235 BTU/hour.

A truck getting 20 MPG and traveling 60 MPH consumes 3 gallons diesel per hour. 3 gallons of fuel contains 130,500 BTU. A Q-5 brick would reduce this consumption to 2. 995 gallons for a whopping 0. 2% mileage improvement. But nothing comes for free. You have to drive the alternator to make the power to run the electrochemical reaction and pump.

Cute novelty though.

 

[MA2LA]

I have seen a little bit on these systems but haven't paid much attention until recently. The question I have is it the BTU content of the hydrogen or is it the chemical reaction.

 

[brods]

I haven’t done much research either, though a few things seem to stand out. First, there is no way to split water, then burn the gasses and get more power out than was put in. Consider that a internal combustion is usually around 30% efficient. So even if we could get back all the energy that it took to split the water, 70% of that energy would still be wasted! So from strictly BTU value, hydrogen is a net loss. It will always take more energy to split the water than is returned while burning it.



Now that does not mean it cannot improve mpg in smogified diesel engine. Assuming that at least some of the information on the hydrogen sites is factual, it sounds like hydrogen promotes a faster burn during the combustion event, increasing the combustion temperatures and pressures. This would be similar to advancing the timing and reducing the effects of EGR, and would be likely to get some mpg increase. Increasing the combustion temperatures and pressures makes more power, but it is likely to be counterproductive the manufacturer’s efforts to keep NOx emissions low.



It would be interesting to know how the hydrogen, just dribbled into the air intake, will react with the multiple injection events. Does most of the hydrogen get consumed during the burn of the pilot injection or is there plenty left to react with the main injection event? What effect does the hydrogen have under light loads? Heavy loads? What is the minimum amount of hydrogen needed to have a positive effect? What is the ideal amount? Can there be too much? Etc.



See this excellent post about EGTs. Gives some food for thought about doing any mods that will raise combustion temps. https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/1943960-post2.html



Anyhow, until someone shows serious proof that these hydrogen setups have more of an effect than just a tuner with the timing advanced, I’ll remain skeptical. That is just my opinion and worth only about what you’ve paid for it.



Apparently the Myth Busters did something on one of their shows: Do Hydrogen Boost systems for automobiles actually work. - Topic Powered by eve community

 

[Little Bill]

Air contains 0. 00005% H2 by volume. At 2000 rpm, a Q-5 brick will double that volume to 0. 0001%. Still nothing.

 

[betterthanstock]

I've seen some other tests of gadgets where they take a misfiring side-valve mower engine, and it improves combustion eficiency when they hook up their gadget. Doesn't mean much for a well tuned engine.

 

[rbattelle]

But nothing comes for free.

No one wants to believe the 1st law anymore.



I think any economy improvement from these devices comes from psychology. Subconsciously you believe the device is effective, and unwittingly drive differently to satisfy your beliefs.



I promise you, there are lots of real world folks out there who are using fuel line magnets and achieving impressive fuel economy gains. And magnets are cheaper than hydrogen.



Ryan

 

[HBarlow]

Ryan,



I had to laugh as I read your post above.



I agree with your analysis.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

About a week after machines were invented, people started selling perpetual motion machines. Many have been paid for, none have worked. The first and second laws of thermodynamics still rule.

 

[Tinman]

I agree with brods and he makes a some good points. Fact is, any of these back yard fuel changes, including biodiesel, and WVO have not be studied by the folks that have the equipment to do it right(engine test stand with everything monitored). So we'll never know what effects the chosen fuel/mod will have on combustion temp. /pressures, injectors, fuel pumps etc. So you try to save a little money on fuel but cut your engine life in 1/2. What have you gained? I have decided there is too much unknown to run the engine on something it wasn't designed to. I'll spend my time and money on making my truck as efficient as possible with known mods such as timing changes, free flow intake/ exhaust, blah, blah. And not driving mach 2:-laf