Drilling for larger lug studs

[ENafziger]

As the saga continues... the truck's been down now for 3 weeks over a blowout. Thus far, I bought some Rickson 19. 5 wheels and 265/70 Toyo M608Z tires, and am redoing the rear brakes with 1 1/8" wheel cylinders and 3" shoes. I got 2 Speedi-Sleaves and new seals to repair the leaking problem, and the GL-6 spec 80-140w Gorilla Juice is on its way for the rear end.

Which brings me up to last night.

I inspected the front brakes, and mounted the Rickson's on the front of the truck... only to find out that the lug studs are not going to work. The new wheels are so thick, that I can only get 1 or 1 1/2 thread engagement on the lug nuts. I spent several hours searching for a 9/16-18 replacement stud that would work. From what I've found, there is none. The Dorman 610-283 studs are about 1/4" longer, but not long enough to give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Dorman 610-439 studs are about the same, except the shoulder is too short. I know I could get a shoulder style lug nut commonly used on Mag wheels, but quite frankly, I hate them. They're hard to use, are a royal pain, and I know just having them would disuade me from rotating the tires like I should. And, I would have to stick with a 1/2-20 lug.

So, the only thing that I found to work, is a Dorman 610-303. It is roughly a full 1" longer than the OEM lug studs, and is in a 9/16-18 thread. The only problem is that the knurl diameter is 0. 677" compared to the OEM knurl of 0. 651" front and 0. 658" rear. I found through reading, that the lug hole needs to be 0. 017" - 0. 027" smaller than the lug knurl diameter for proper spline engagement to lock the stud in place. Thus, I need a hole that is from 0. 650" - 0. 660" to press the new lug studs into. I also read, that according to some people, you should NEVER drill out a lug hole; rather, if the hole has to be enlarged, it should be reamed. I know that reaming generally gives a truer cylindrical hole; however, I only have to enlarge the hole about 0. 022". I can't think of a good reason why I can't drill them out on a press. Thus, I ordered a 16. 5 mm drill bit, which gives a nominal diameter of 0. 64960", or 0. 0004" under the minimum hole size. I figure I can use this bit to slightly enlarge the existing holes, and if the bit varies the cylindrical bore of the hole ever-so-slightly, I still have 0. 010" tolerance to play with and still be within the acceptable hole size for the new lugs.

Does anyone have a compelling reason on why this won't work? I did find an adjustable reamer that can be varied from 19/32" - 21/32" that I could mic and ream the holes if necessary... but I just can't think of a reason that it will be necessary. Am I missing something?

So, in short, one blowout has turned into a $5,000 upgrade :-laf But, on the other hand, I can't think of a vehicle more fitting for such an upgrade than a good ol' trusty 1st Gen!

P. S. The pictures below are just to make the thread a little more colorful... and so I could try out the new upload-from-computer option Anyway, progress of the wheels transforming into matte black. The greenish color is a metal etching primer and adhesion promoter.

 

[mwilson]

OMG, is that a Festiva in the background????? Those have all rusted and blown away up here... .

Mike...

 

[Mikey-KE7LBB]

OMG, is that a Festiva in the background?????

I don't think that Festiva is even a translatable word in the Spanish language :-laf:-laf

 

[ENafziger]

OMG, is that a Festiva in the background????? Those have all rusted and blown away up here... .

Sure is... I keep getting ready to sell her, and then something like this happens and I end up driving her everywhere again. At 216k, she's going strong as ever... and with the fuel injected 5-speed, getting 42 mpg to boot! I put a trailer hitch on the Festiva, and pull a 12' single axle trailer frequently. In fact, I've probably towed 80,000 miles with that car without a problem.

As soon as I get ol' Blue back on the road, the Festiva's going up for sale if you're interested

--Eric

 

[DVolk]

I would not drill them out id look at a longer stud such as the ones on oem fords or ones advertised on summit or jeggs maybe even strange engeneering etc

 

[ENafziger]

I would not drill them out id look at a longer stud such as the ones on oem fords or ones advertised on summit or jeggs maybe even strange engeneering etc

That's the problem... I looked for hours and hours and searched on multiple forums. The only offering of a longer stud is only 3/16" longer than what I have, and that simply doesn't give enough thread engagement. I don't really see any other choice?

 

[GHarman]

IMHO, for the money you have invested, a chucking reamer is coffee money. Buy the reamer, run it slow using aluminum cutting coolant, and do it right.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=317-9782&PMPXNO=19503192
This is an American Made Reamer, BTW. There are others available at various prices.
Do you have a way of centering the hole under the reamer? Are you setting this up in a drill press or a milling machine? Dont do it with a hand drill motor and a drill bit! The holes will not be straight.
GregH

 

[ENafziger]

Do you have a way of centering the hole under the reamer? Are you setting this up in a drill press or a milling machine? Dont do it with a hand drill motor and a drill bit! The holes will not be straight.
GregH

Yes, I do. I plan on using a big floor mounted drill press. I realize there would be potential for getting the holes off using a hand drill. I could use a reamer, but from what I read, a reamer cannot remove more than 0. 005" material... is that correct? If so, I the closest drill bit I can find under the reaming dimension, is a 41/64" bit... but that would require a 21/32" reamer to clean up the hole with a 0. 010" cut, which is twice the maximum recommended metal removal.

Again, if this isn't correct, please tell me. I'm mostly going off what I've read, and have done little reaming first hand.

The only thing I can find, is the adjustable reamer mentioned above that I could set to about 0. 003" larger than the 16. 5 mm bit. This would require drilling the 32 holes on the drill press, and then reaming 32 holes. I'm not opposed to that necessarily, but since there is a 0. 010" press fit dimension on the stud, I would think drilling on the small end of that dimension would offer the best fit. From what I read, the reamers usually have a + 0. 003", - 0. 000" tolerance. Thus, if I drill at 16. 5 mm, then ream at 0. 003" more than that to ensure the reamer cleans up the whole, and then the actual tolerance of the could be 0. 003" more than that, then the hole could be 0. 006" bigger (albeit probably more perfectly cylindrical) than just drilling.

If the above method would truly offer benefit, I'll do it. But it seems like a lot of complication for a seemingly simple task.

Thanks again guys...

Eric

 

[pwerwagn]

This may/may not help you, but I recently dealt with a similar issue on the 9" in the rear of the ranger. It had 1/2" studs in the axles with a . 685" knurl. The 1/2" studs broke at a race, I thought it was a good time to upgrade to 9/16 or 5/8". I searched everywhere, like you. I found some 9/16" ones that were like . 690" knurl... and thought they would work great seeing as how I had already pressed a . 685" in there. They didnt. They made a big mess of things for me, and I had to buy new shafts. I called everywhere trying to get the studs I needed and nobody made them! I did drill one shaft in a big drill press, and I put a bunch of loctite on the stud prior to pressing it in. I then tack welded the stud in, and that one held up good for a whole race. Its still my spare shaft after I replaced both shafts with new ones. The other shaft did not hold up though. And welding to the stud might weaken it... so I was a bit leery.



I actually wound up buying different wheels to solve my problem. I couldnt find a combo that worked with my knurl diameter and the wheels I was running.



I personally wouldnt worry a whole lot about drilling if you are pretty precise.



The other option I threw around was taking the wheels to a shop and having them cut the hole a little deeper. Keep the taper, but make the lug sit a few threads deeper in there.

 

[DVolk]

Have you looked in any of those circle track magazines they have some huge wheel studs avalible and lenghts

 

[WalterRyan]

"a reamer cannot remove more than 0. 005" material... is that correct?"



No that is not correct. The amount you ream out changes with the diameter of the reamer. The larger the reamer the more material is removed with when reaming. I would not drill the holes out, use the reamer. You should have no problem removing . 010 with a reamer. Clamp the hub to the drill press table and use the chamfer on the end of the reamer to center on the existing holes with the spindle off. Raise the spindle turn it on and feed it as you feel it cut. Use cutting oil on the reamer. Don't worry this is an easy project to do. I am always surprised at some of the information that gets passed on to people asking questions like you are. I am a manufacturing engineer and have been in manufacturing for over 35 years. The first 20 I spent on the shop floor so I know a little about what is going on here.



By the way the reamer tolerance is +. 0003 not +. 003. If you want to check on any of this Google l and I reamer and look at the end of their catalog. It lists the material removal for reamers of . 500 to . 750 as . 012 - . 018. There are also speed and feed recommendations there.



A good resource for anyone doing any machining would be Machinery's Handbook. A little expensive but it has an amazing amount of information in it.

 

[ENafziger]

"a reamer cannot remove more than 0. 005" material... is that correct?"

No that is not correct. The amount you ream out changes with the diameter of the reamer. The larger the reamer the more material is removed with when reaming. I would not drill the holes out, use the reamer. You should have no problem removing . 010 with a reamer. Clamp the hub to the drill press table and use the chamfer on the end of the reamer to center on the existing holes with the spindle off. Raise the spindle turn it on and feed it as you feel it cut. Use cutting oil on the reamer. Don't worry this is an easy project to do. I am always surprised at some of the information that gets passed on to people asking questions like you are. I am a manufacturing engineer and have been in manufacturing for over 35 years. The first 20 I spent on the shop floor so I know a little about what is going on here.

By the way the reamer tolerance is +. 0003 not +. 003. If you want to check on any of this Google l and I reamer and look at the end of their catalog. It lists the material removal for reamers of . 500 to . 750 as . 012 - . 018. There are also speed and feed recommendations there.

A good resource for anyone doing any machining would be Machinery's Handbook. A little expensive but it has an amazing amount of information in it.

Great info... thanks!!! I always welcome learning... especially from those who have both the book learning and practical hands on knowledge.

I actually dove into the rear hubs/drums last night and got them done. I still have to do the fronts. I wish I would've read your advice first, but I think it went pretty well.

I'll spare everyone of the laborious details, because there doesn't seem to be much interest in upgrading to super long 9/16" studs for the purpose of running aluminum Rickson wheels on 1st Gens. Nonetheless, here's some pictures of the effort.

 

[ENafziger]

Well, I'm not getting along with the new way of posting pictures here... Here's the final result though.

This should give about 1 1/4" of thread engagement, even with the Centramatic balancers and Rickson aluminum wheels... and have stronger 9/16" lugs to boot!

--Eric

 

[JHumphries]

If you didn't match mark the hub to the drum, you might want to get them machined. Any slight of center of the drum lug holes, might be a noticeable off center when put back together.

 

[DVolk]

They look like the mid 80s OEM Ford studs

 

[ENafziger]

If you didn't match mark the hub to the drum, you might want to get them machined. Any slight of center of the drum lug holes, might be a noticeable off center when put back together.

Good thought. Yes, I did think to mark the orientation of the hub/drum before I separated them, and I put them back together in the same orientation.

They look like the mid 80s OEM Ford studs

Early-mid '80s E-350 Ford Ecoline Van

--Eric

 

[pwerwagn]

A little late... and im sure you checked... but I just ran across a thread on RCC where a guy upgraded the front studs from a 91 dodge 60 to studs from a gm dana 60, and they looked significantly longer to me. They were also 9/16". Just a thought for anyone in the future reading this thread.

 

[ENafziger]

but I just ran across a thread on RCC where a guy upgraded the front studs from a 91 dodge 60 to studs from a gm dana 60, and they looked significantly longer to me. They were also 9/16".

I *think* those are probably the Dorman 610-283 studs. They are 9/16-18 thread, and are longer, but only by about 3/16". That wasn't quite enough extra length for my particular situation... but then again, I tend to go for overkill whenever possible

So, thanks for the input... but shouldn't you be outside working on that super duper RC conversion???

--Eric

 

[RSchwarzli]

This is a Robert type of picture upgrade thread! I like it! Well done!

 

[pwerwagn]

So, thanks for the input... but shouldn't you be outside working on that super duper RC conversion???



--Eric

Yeah Yeah Yeah... you got me. I havent touched it in a while, been trying to move houses instead. So the RC's been backburnered for a few. Good news is we should close ~mid october on a house with a BIG heated garage... wait... 2 big heated garages :-laf so that should help the RC progress nicely thru the winter.



On a good note I finally found tires and wheels locally for it yesterday. 24 bolt H1 beadlocks and 37" bfg baja TA's. I traded one of my Glocks for them. ;-)