eBrakes are available

[Big MAK]

It's my understanding there are eBrakes available from PacBrake (Cummins approved?) and BD (also approved?).



I think people are getting the wrong impression -- i. e. that there isn't an ebrake available -- simply because Jacobs doesn't have one and that's the one Dodge deals in. Consequently; I'm opening a new thread to stick to the top of the forum that informs readers there -are- ebrakes available. Jacobs is not the -only- game in town.



So I'm putting this thread up here! Please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[Big MAK]

twc's post from the thread I just closed is a good summation:

> From reading the past few posts I would have thought that

> you might not have read the first page... .



Jim, I've read 'em all, including your #11 -- and supplemented that with my own research. Here are the facts to date:



(1) Dodge (not Cummins or Jacobs) has placed a hold on exhaust brakes.

(2) Dodge isn't talking (certainly not to me) about what the problem is.

(3) There is no specified time for correction of the problem; in point of fact, there is no commitment to correct the problem. In this context, I'm suddenly very sensitive to the plight of 48RE transmission owners.

(4) Here are my notes from Tuesday, September 14: I was told by someone (sorry, didn't get a name) in the parts department at Cummins Rocky Mountain in Denver that there was a hold by Dodge on the Jacobs exhaust brake because of a "safety issue". Contrary to some reports I'd heard, he said it was not an availability problem because they had them on the shelf in Denver. He thought the safety issue was a wiring problem and added that he though it would apply to any exhaust brake that was installed. I specifically asked about other exhaust brakes, searching for an alternate answer to my problem, and was told that, "Cummins does not recommend any non-Jacobs parts. "



> I'm guessing that we might not have the complete scope of the issues.



Too right. I haven't seen or heard anything that I would call authoritative.



> Like I said above in my other post... . PacBrake exhaust brake

> has been approved by Cummins for all their engines from exhaust

> brakes through engine brakes for larger engines.....



(5) You are a PacBrake dealer.

(6) You say that Cummins has approved installation of PacBrake exhaust brakes.

(7) There is a conflict between what Cummins told me and what you have posted.



I'm not in a position to resolve this issue, but you are. However, proof by repeated assertion isn't credible. Let's face it: As a PacBrake dealer, you have a conflict of interest.



Before I installed the Jacobs exhaust brake in my 1998 Dodge I got written approval from both Dodge and Cummins that it was an acceptable modification and would not void my warranty. PacBrake legally cannot make this claim without something comparable. As a PacBrake dealer, all you have to do is call the corporate office and have them send you a copy of the written authorization from Dodge and Cummins for PacBrake installation then scan it and post it on this site. For extra credit, assuming PacBrake can get the information, post hard data on the nature of the problem and explain why PacBrake isn't susceptible to it. Finally, I'd suggest that you send a copy to Cummins in Denver to correct their misunderstanding. I guarantee you that a lot of Dodge owners and potential owners will sleep better tonight, and it will do wonders for your bottom line.



Tom Christian

Fort Collins, CO

 

[twc]

Continued from the "Dealer wont sell Jacobs exhaust brake?" thread:



Jared,



> If an "exhaust brake is not optional" what brand of exaust brake

> is warranty aproved for a Ford Powerstroke? The torqshift in "tow

> haul" mode can't develop any more compression braking than a

> manual transmission so I assume you have added an aftermarket

> exhaust brake the same as you could have done with a Dodge.



Engine braking is built into (at least) the 2005 PowerStroke diesel engines as part of their Tow Command package, which also includes an integrated trailer brake control (very nice), all cross-coupled into the ECM. Depending on which "authoritative" source you believe, it's either the Exhaust Pressure Regulator (EPR) valve or closing the variable-pitch turbocharger that creates the backpressure. I do not know the answer, but it does work. I'll ask Ford tech support and post their answer. Is it as good as what I had with the Jacobs exhaust brake in my 1998 Dodge, complete with standard transmission and HD exhaust valve springs? I'd have to say, "No. " But then I don't think any automatic transmission equipped vehicle could be, including those with the Allison.



As an interesting side note, I had a similar discussion with a couple of the local GMC dealers. If you buy a GMC 5500 with the Duramax diesel and Allison transmission, you can get an exhaust brake that's coupled to the transmission via the ECM, just like on the Dodge or Ford. However, the 3500's, don't offer this feature. Your argument is precisely the one I used: The drive train has to have something to push against for braking, otherwise you have only friction losses to slow you down since diesels are controlled by fuel and run wide open. That mostly produced blank stares. The Duramax may have something comparable to the Ford engine braking, but I was utterly unable to prove that.



Tom Christian

Fort Collins, CO

 

[LightmanE300]

Lets see some proof that pac brakes, banks brakes, or BD exhaust brakes are approved by Cummins.

 

[mbadger]

Thanks. I contacted my mechanic and let him know. I had a PacBrake on my 96 and liked it.

 

[Winston Wolf]

Update on J brake

I just got some new (to me, anyway) info on the J situation. This is not from any kind of official statement, but it is from someone at a large corporation. I'm not going to say who or where this came from. But I believe them to be credible and closer to the horse's mouth than the other end.



I heard the following statements:



"Did have some fires"

Cause was "misalignment of the exhaust clamp".

Incidents were "isolated to a particular install facility"



It sounds like if you did the install correctly, then you shouldn't be at risk of a fire. But without more facts, I'd call that a guess at best.



The fix is reported to be a different style clamp with locating pins that should make it impossible to install the clamp "misaligned". The fix is supposed to be available in mid-December.



My opinions based on what I heard:



I am a product safety engineer in my day job (not automotive). In my practice, there is no way in hell I would let a known documented risk of fire continue to exist without making an official statement, notifying registered owners, considering a call-in for inspection, etc.



Engine fires are pretty serious in my book. Rather than not talk about it, the best way to deal with a situation like this is to determine the facts, communicate what's relevant, and do your due dilligence to protect your customer. Maybe that's been done in this case. Maybe not.



A dead truck on the side of the road due to a mechanical failure is bad. A burned dead truck is inexcusable.



I'm well into rant mode now, so I'll stop right there.

 

[jelag]

Guys... ... .



I like these boards... for several reasons... 1 - I own 6 trucks... . and gleen lots of information... . 2 - I sometimes can help with input that I think is common sense, back to basic..... lets test it. . not guess... sort of logic... . I took some of the information posted above a little hard..... If you think I'm out of line... . let me know... .



I've been told and have had a report read to me on the phone about the "stop sell" issue with the Jacobs product... . I personally believe that this is nothing more than a QC oversight... and it has resulted in the damage to 5 trucks based on the report... Years ago we used to be a Jacobs dealer and was their largest dealer in the Pacific Northwest under our old name Pacific Diesel Brake... . Out of respect to Jacobs, and this borad and the fact that I don't think throwing mud in their eyes is an acceptable way to do business I haven't copy and pasted the report to this board... . I believe its a QC oversight... . after all their people are human also... . They will get past it... .



In the owners manual of my 01 Dodge Ram it menitoned that if you tow DC suggests the use of an exhaust brake to improve braking quality... . its says nothing about a DC or Jacobs exhaust brake... . just exhaust brake...



PacBrake does manufacture exhaust brakes and engine brakes for Cummins, CAT, IH, Navstar, Mac, Detroit and on most of these engines you can spec a PacBrake or Jacobs engine brake or exhaust brake based on the size of the engine and truck when you place your order with the body builder..... (Freightliner, Kenworth, Peterbilt, Mack, etc)



Federal law allows other manufactures to be included acceptable additions to vehicles without hinderence to voiding your warranty..... Now is DC going to open a can of worms and put thier blessing on a product they don't sell to their dealers... . nope... . However we do sell several dealers PacBrakes, and sell lots of engine brake kits and parts to Cummins, and the only denial I've heard about... ... is a dealers that are out in the cold on any exhaust brake including jacobs... . you know the type..... once you take the truck off the lot your "your own warranty station" type of guys... .



I've always suggested that you look for an exhaust brake using the following.....



Find a manufacturer who designs and builds both engine brakes and exhaust brakes and sells to a world market... . Who does this with complete in house manufacturing and engineering... ... this alone will narrow your selection to 2 companies... Jacobs and PacBrake..... and go to their web sights and make a choice based on what you read... ... If you do this... . I believe that you'd make the correct choice for you... If I play a part in the sale I'm happy..... but if I'm not. . thats fine with me... .



Jacobs has chosen to align themselves with the manufactures... and in some cases so has PacBrake... and at the manufacturing level there is fierce competition.....



But here were all friends..... Have a great day... .



Jim

 

[Winston Wolf]

I'm a relative newcomer here, so take my comments with a grain of salt.



First off, I appreciate all the info and comradarie here on the TDR. This forum is a cut above the average and I consider all of you CTD brethren among the Best People on Earth (B. P. O. E. ).



That said, here's my take on Jacobs vs other exhaust brakes on Rams.



I've seen nothing to suggest that Pac, BD, etc are technically inferior to Jacobs. In fact, in light of the current "no sell" hold on Jacobs, one could argue that the opposite is true. At least at this time until a fix is implemented.



Regarding warranty, Jacobs does appear to have a unique sweetheart business arrangement with Dodge. Although Cummins may endorse Pac and others on other Cummins engines, I've seen nothing to indicate any endorsement or approval of Pac, et al specific to the Dodge Ram Cummins.



What this means to me? If I install a Jacobs and for some unlikely event I make a warranty claim regarding my engine, Dodge/Cummins/Jacobs say they'll stand behind it. I'm talking of a case where whatever damage is alleged to have been caused in whole or part by virtue of having an exhaust brake installed.



If I have another brand of brake installed, one that is not endorsed by Dodge and/or Cummins, then I could be in a gray area regarding warranty. The Magnussen-Moss act says my warranty can't be denied because of an aftermarket accessory. That is unless the damage is determined to have been caused by the aftermarket accessory. In that case, my warranty could legitimately be denied for a non-approved accessory.



If I make an engine warranty claim, the dealer may be quick to point at my non-approved accessory. And the burden may be on me to prove him wrong. The advantage with Jacobs here is "it's all covered" and there should be no questions asked.



How likely is it that I could damage my engine with a Pac or BD? Not very. The risk seems pretty minimal to me.



What I liked about Jacobs was 1) least warranty risk, 2) they claim to do a lot of testing, 3) reputation, and 4) really cool stalk switch.



What I don't like about Jacobs is 1) vacuum pump/belt, 2) much higher cost, and now 3) poorly handled "stop sell" mystery apparently due to a safety issue.



At this point, the bad far outweighs the good with Jacobs IMO. There are other very good choices out there and I will probably go with one of them.



If I'm wrong about any of the above, somebody please correct me. Won't be the first time.

 

[twc]

I'll add one other point to this discussion: It's also important to choose a manufacturer that will stand behind their product. Here's an excerpt from the PacBrake warranty (I'm surprised Jim didn't beat me to this):

Pacbrake Company will pay for all reasonable necessary repairs to

damaged engine components in which a Pacbrake retarder has

been properly installed, provided the damage is established to be

a direct result of a defect in the Pacbrake Exhaust Brake occurring

under normal use, service and approved application during the

warranty coverage. No engine damage coverage shall be provided

beyond this time period on replacement parts. ​

In other words, if a PacBrake floats the valves in your engine and destroys it during the two year PacBrake warranty period, PacBrake will fix it. That should be long enough to sort out any problems. I do realize there could be an issue of proof, but the intent seems clear.



Here's the corresponding text from the Jacobs warranty:

Mopar or Cummins will pay for all parts and labor needed to

repair damage to the Product or Cummins Engine due to a

Warrantable Failure. ​

Jacobs here seems to be relying on their status as the approved product to leverage the support of Dodge or Cummins. In 1998, Dodge was buying engines from Cummins without any warranty and thus was responsible for all engine failures (in exchange for which I'm sure they got a very good price). I suspect this is still the case and that it would be Dodge that would cover any failures.



Tom Christian

Fort Collins, CO

 

[Winston Wolf]

Nice to know that. Thanks Tom.

 

[mbadger]

mbadger

I just got some new (to me, anyway) info on the J situation. This is not from any kind of official statement, but it is from someone at a large corporation. I'm not going to say who or where this came from. But I believe them to be credible and closer to the horse's mouth than the other end.



I heard the following statements:



"Did have some fires"

Cause was "misalignment of the exhaust clamp".

Incidents were "isolated to a particular install facility"



It sounds like if you did the install correctly, then you shouldn't be at risk of a fire. But without more facts, I'd call that a guess at best.



The fix is reported to be a different style clamp with locating pins that should make it impossible to install the clamp "misaligned". The fix is supposed to be available in mid-December.



My opinions based on what I heard:



I am a product safety engineer in my day job (not automotive). In my practice, there is no way in hell I would let a known documented risk of fire continue to exist without making an official statement, notifying registered owners, considering a call-in for inspection, etc.



Engine fires are pretty serious in my book. Rather than not talk about it, the best way to deal with a situation like this is to determine the facts, communicate what's relevant, and do your due dilligence to protect your customer. Maybe that's been done in this case. Maybe not.



A dead truck on the side of the road due to a mechanical failure is bad. A burned dead truck is inexcusable.



I'm well into rant mode now, so I'll stop right there.

Thanks for the info

 

[mbadger]

PacBrake

I'm a relative newcomer here, so take my comments with a grain of salt.



First off, I appreciate all the info and comradarie here on the TDR. This forum is a cut above the average and I consider all of you CTD brethren among the Best People on Earth (B. P. O. E. ).



That said, here's my take on Jacobs vs other exhaust brakes on Rams.



I've seen nothing to suggest that Pac, BD, etc are technically inferior to Jacobs. In fact, in light of the current "no sell" hold on Jacobs, one could argue that the opposite is true. At least at this time until a fix is implemented.



Regarding warranty, Jacobs does appear to have a unique sweetheart business arrangement with Dodge. Although Cummins may endorse Pac and others on other Cummins engines, I've seen nothing to indicate any endorsement or approval of Pac, et al specific to the Dodge Ram Cummins.



What this means to me? If I install a Jacobs and for some unlikely event I make a warranty claim regarding my engine, Dodge/Cummins/Jacobs say they'll stand behind it. I'm talking of a case where whatever damage is alleged to have been caused in whole or part by virtue of having an exhaust brake installed.



If I have another brand of brake installed, one that is not endorsed by Dodge and/or Cummins, then I could be in a gray area regarding warranty. The Magnussen-Moss act says my warranty can't be denied because of an aftermarket accessory. That is unless the damage is determined to have been caused by the aftermarket accessory. In that case, my warranty could legitimately be denied for a non-approved accessory.



If I make an engine warranty claim, the dealer may be quick to point at my non-approved accessory. And the burden may be on me to prove him wrong. The advantage with Jacobs here is "it's all covered" and there should be no questions asked.



How likely is it that I could damage my engine with a Pac or BD? Not very. The risk seems pretty minimal to me.



What I liked about Jacobs was 1) least warranty risk, 2) they claim to do a lot of testing, 3) reputation, and 4) really cool stalk switch.



What I don't like about Jacobs is 1) vacuum pump/belt, 2) much higher cost, and now 3) poorly handled "stop sell" mystery apparently due to a safety issue.



At this point, the bad far outweighs the good with Jacobs IMO. There are other very good choices out there and I will probably go with one of them.



If I'm wrong about any of the above, somebody please correct me. Won't be the first time.

I talked with my mechanic about the PacBrake and he is looking into it. Thanks.

 

[FDrake]

QUOTE "If I make an engine warranty claim, the dealer may be quick to point at my non-approved accessory. And the burden may be on me to prove him wrong. The advantage with Jacobs here is "it's all covered" and there should be no questions asked. "UNQUOTE

*********************************************************

I would think the burden of proof of engine and/or transmission damage would be upon the dealer NOT the owner of the vehicle to prove. If they are going to deny a service THEY would have to prove the reason. My dealer told me from the outset, installing ANY EB would make me the warranty station.

Frank

 

[mbadger]

Thanks for the info. I like to research all info I can get.

 

[twc]

> I would think the burden of proof of engine and/or transmission damage

> would be upon the dealer NOT the owner of the vehicle to prove.



This is a perfectly reasonable position to take -- but likely something you'll never experience. The problem is that the dealer holds most of the cards (sorry about the pun) in this situation. They can simply deny coverage under warranty, leaving you with a dead truck or an expensive repair bill. You can always sue, but there's no guarantee that you'll win and, if you lose, the legal costs could far outweigh the repair costs. Pragmatically, all the dealer has to do is stonewall you.



So let's talk about support. What does it mean for a product to be supported? It's not what you get from the Magnusson-Moss Act. That just lets you install after-market products without voiding your warranty. It doesn't discuss what happens if there's a failure. I'll attempt a definition for the automotive industry: "A product is supported if that product is presumed to be suitable for its intended purpose such that all failures, even if caused by the supported product itself, are covered under warranty without question. " There are several implications of this definition:



(1) Whether or not a particular product or after-market component is supported only has meaning during the vehicle warranty period. For example, if your vehicle is out of warranty and your "supported" Jacobs E-Brake fails and destroys your engine, it's your problem. There's no question of warranty coverage.



(2) It's not important whether the warranty is provided by the vehicle manufacturer or the after-market product vendor. All that matters is that failures will be covered under warranty without question if they occur during the vehicle warranty period.



Interestingly, this is a situation where there may be some advantage to an after-market product. The way I read the consequential damage section of the PacBrake warranty (posted earlier in this thread), they'll cover damage caused by their product even if the vehicle itself is no longer in warranty. The Jacobs warranty appears to cover damage caused by their product only while the vehicle warranty is in force since that coverage is provided by the manufacturer. [Disclaimer: I'm a scientist, not a lawer. ]



(3) If there is a failure claimed by the dealer to be caused by the after-market product and the dealer denies warranty coverage, all damage resulting from that failure will be covered under warranty by the after-market product vendor without hesitation, even if there is a dispute about the cause of the failure.



(4) If the vendor of an after-market product covers repair costs for a failure believed not to be caused by their product, then the vendor may seek compensation from the dealer or manufacturer who denied warranty coverage. Such action will be taken independently so that it does not affect timely repair of the customer's vehicle. In other words, all warranty decisions will be made in favor of the customer.



If you can answer "Yes" to all of these conditions, you've got a supported product.



Tom Christian

Fort Collins, CO

 

[twc]

Follow-up: How the PowerStroke 6.0 engine generates backpressure for engine braking

I promised to find out how engine braking works on the PowerStroke 6. 0 engine and wrote to International for the straight stuff. Here's their reply:

We do not have an exhaust pressure regulator valve. We have a sensor that

provides exhaust backpressure feedback to the vehicle's computer, but it

does not regulate. The sensor does provide information to help the PCM

properly position the variable geometry turbocharger, which creates boost,

exhaust pressure, and some engine braking in various situations. ​

I also found a review of the 2003 Ford F-350 with the PowerStroke 6. 0 engine that has a good description of how this works, complete with a cutaway view of the variable geometry turbocharger:

http://www.mrtruck.net/powerstroke.htm​

Weather permitting, we're going to tow our 12,000 lb. 5th wheel over Cameron Pass to North Park this weekend. The descent, particularly eastbound, provides a good test of engine braking. I'll know a lot more about how well it works by Monday.



Tom Christian

Fort Collins, CO

 

[Pat@BD]

Guys... ... .



I

I've always suggested that you look for an exhaust brake using the following.....



Find a manufacturer who designs and builds both engine brakes and exhaust brakes and sells to a world market... . Who does this with complete in house manufacturing and engineering... ... this alone will narrow your selection to 2 companies... Jacobs and PacBrake..... and go to their web sights and make a choice based on what you read... ... If you do this... . I believe that you'd make the correct choice for you... If I play a part in the sale I'm happy..... but if I'm not. . thats fine with me... .



But here were all friends..... Have a great day... .



Jim

Not that I am trying to flame you here, just want to make sure people get all the information here. You might want to check into what you said about the two compainies manufacturing all their products in house. And comparing an engine brake to an exhaust brake is totally irrelivant. Same end result, but a totally different process on getting there. All of the companies are going to out source some of the manufacturing process. But as long as the end product meets the engine specifications what difference does it make who pours the castings or machines them???

 

[Matt42]

Are the Jake Brakes At Dealers Yet?

Perspiring minds want to know. We need one for our 2004. 5.

 

[Pat@BD]

Perspiring minds want to know. We need one for our 2004. 5.

The 04. 5 turbo mount brake is going to be available in about 2-3 weeks. Give us a call and we can get one on order for you.

 

[discountdave10]

OK... here's the deal. I've been hauling horses all over the US for the past 30 years and I wouldn't dream of NOT having an exhaust brake, (Just imagine a 6-horse 18,000# trailer "pushing" you down Raton Pass in Colorado... that's right, not a cheery thought).



When I bought my new 2004 I immediately put a Pac brake on the unit and it works super. By the way, if a driver can't feel when there's torque converter lockup you'd best go back to the WalMart school of driving.



The garage that services my trucks, (I also have a 1999 similarly equiped). vehimently reccomends the Pac unit.



Noy boys, every now and then we've got to do a bit of thinking and acting on our own. I know there's no problem with the exhaust brake and my automatic transmissions... and yes I've got both trucks with trans fluid deep pans, fan coolers and guages.



The Dodge trucks are absolutely "the best" at pulling, (Remember the old days when gas ruled?... yuk!).



I even like the smell of diesel... ain't I nuts?



Best of luck to you all and just think why DC sells such a super truck with giant engines and then NOT authorize exhaust brakes. What do they think we're going to tow... foam insulation?



Dave from Phoenix... yes, lots of hills and mountains!



2004 3500 Quad, automatic, Pac exhaust brake, Edge chip, 4" straight exhaust, all guages and sheepskins... mighty comfy for us old drivers