EGR valve question

[pservano]

I have a 2006 Mega cab 5. 9 that I just recently bought. I was wondering if it has an EGR valve just like my Ford 6. 0 Powerstroke that I sold.

 

[foolkiller]

i'm getting an 07 and crawled all over the truck trying to find the egr and couldn't. i don't think they're on em till the 6. 7 comes out.

 

[jwilliams3]

No EGR on 5. 9's.

 

[Bob4x4]

No EGR on 5. 9's.

Except 12v's



Bob

 

[dieselshadow]

Except 12v's



Bob

Only certain 12v's have them, such as the california models. Most 12v's do not have them.

 

[cerberusiam]

No EGR on 5. 9's.

All 04. 5 to current 5. 9's have an EGR system.

 

[Bob4x4]

All 04. 5 to current 5. 9's have an EGR system.

No! Only 3rd gens with egr are the 6. 7's 12v 96-98 cali emmissions.



Bob

 

[Mikie12]

NO EGR for 3rd G 5. 9's-Ca or otherwise... .....

 

[cerberusiam]

No! Only 3rd gens with egr are the 6. 7's 12v 96-98 cali emmissions.



Bob

NO EGR for 3rd G 5. 9's-Ca or otherwise... .....

Oh, it is there all right. One simply has to look at the engine specs, fuel control, and Cummins description of the 600\610 emissions advances and apply a little deductive reasoning.





Now before the nay saying reaches a crescendo, ask yourself how Cummins is the ONLY light duty engine supplier to meet emissions without some type of EGR, and, how it could be done without external clues. They just figured out how to do it with a lot less parts and fanfare.



Unfortunately it wasn't enough for the 07 emissions standards so now everybody has a bunch of expensive extra parts to wear out.

 

[TAbbott]

It's my understanding that Cummins was able to produce the 5. 9's thru the 06 model year w/o EGR due to having "banked" emissions credits with the EPA --- that is to say that they had produced cleaner engines than required over the years, received credits for doing so and then were allowed to average it out by releasing engines that were a bit short of compliance until they had used those credits up. I know that on their larger models, they've had EGR for years (since 2002 at least) and the systems are readily apparent. I don't know what mechanism they could have used on the B-series to hide such a system nor do I know why they'd go to the trouble when their competition was required to have them anyway. The new system on the 6. 7's looks just like a scaled down version of the systems used on the larger engine series. Only Caterpillar with their Ascert system (compound turbochargers) managed to avoid the 20% EGR until the 2007 emissions year.

 

[Bob4x4]

Oh, it is there all right. One simply has to look at the engine specs, fuel control, and Cummins description of the 600\610 emissions advances and apply a little deductive reasoning.





Now before the nay saying reaches a crescendo, ask yourself how Cummins is the ONLY light duty engine supplier to meet emissions without some type of EGR, and, how it could be done without external clues. They just figured out how to do it with a lot less parts and fanfare.



Unfortunately it wasn't enough for the 07 emissions standards so now everybody has a bunch of expensive extra parts to wear out.

Your deductive resoning is faulty :-laf :-laf Cummins was able to run clean enough with software.



Bob

 

[cerberusiam]

Your deductive resoning is faulty :-laf :-laf Cummins was able to run clean enough with software.



Bob

Well then I guess I will be faulty with an elite group. :-laf :-laf





The system isn't apparent, it isn't as effective as an external EGR systems, but it is still EGR.



While there are no valves, pipes, sensors, etc, to worry about the impact still has the potential to cause issues. Think about this for a bit:



1. Why with better air, fuel control, etc, do we see higher EGT's? Something is driving them that high and it isn't fuel related.



2. Why so much coking the injector tips without some good high temps to burn the crud off? This one is much more prevalent on the 600 series engines.



3. Notice how much faster the oil turns black? I have a 92 that dynos right with my 05 on power and it takes much longer to turn the oil black so it isn't fuel.





Cheers

 

[TAbbott]

Well then I guess I will be faulty with an elite group. :-laf :-laf





The system isn't apparent, it isn't as effective as an external EGR systems, but it is still EGR.



While there are no valves, pipes, sensors, etc, to worry about the impact still has the potential to cause issues. Think about this for a bit:



1. Why with better air, fuel control, etc, do we see higher EGT's? Something is driving them that high and it isn't fuel related.



2. Why so much coking the injector tips without some good high temps to burn the crud off? This one is much more prevalent on the 600 series engines.



3. Notice how much faster the oil turns black? I have a 92 that dynos right with my 05 on power and it takes much longer to turn the oil black so it isn't fuel.





Cheers

All of the things you mention can be attributed to retarded timing.

 

[Bob4x4]

Well then I guess I will be faulty with an elite group. :-laf :-laf





The system isn't apparent, it isn't as effective as an external EGR systems, but it is still EGR.



Cheers

Pull the exhaust manifold off and you will see there is no way to introduce exhaust gasses into the intake tract.



Bob

 

[cerberusiam]

All of the things you mention can be attributed to retarded timing.

Ah, but my timing is advanced. Even retarding the timing to push more fuel does not net the same results between trucks. When was the last time you heard of a 1st or 2nd gen coking tips? It just doesn't happen on a street driveable truck.

Pull the exhaust manifold off and you will see there is no way to introduce exhaust gasses into the intake tract.



Bob

Where is it written the only way to implement EGR is thru the intake tract?

 

[TAbbott]

You indicate your timing is advanced. Does that mean that all of the injection events of your 05 occur at a time that is advanced or equal to that of the single injection event of your 92? I kinda doubt it. EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) means that some portion of the exhaust of the engine is diverted to the incoming air charge entering the cylinder -- either that or it has to be diverted directly into one cylinder from the exhaust pulse of another. That would require a total redesign of the head and would probably be far more complicated and costly than the external systems everyone is familiar with. Basically, we know where the dead air comes from and we know where it has to go, so what you're talking about is apparently some invisible, mysterious and really arcane method of getting it from A to B. I guess you could close the exhaust valves early and not completely exhaust the cylinder, leaving some spent gasses in the cylinder but that would really screw up the operation of the engine, seeing as how it's basically just a big air pump in the first place.

 

[cerberusiam]

Does that mean that all of the injection events of your 05 occur at a time that is advanced or equal to that of the single injection event of your 92? I kinda doubt it.

Timing is really hard to compare between trucks as one is a predetermined mechanical advance curve while the other is dynamic based on a multitude of factors. At some point the timing is equal and I am running a bit more fuel thru the 92 with less EGT's.

EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) means that some portion of the exhaust of the engine is diverted to the incoming air charge entering the cylinder

Its implemented this way but why does it have to be? What is being accomplished by using EGR? In a nutshell, a portion of the incoming charge is replaced by oxygen poor air to reduce combustion temps thereby reducing NOX formation. Close enough for comparisons?

Basically, we know where the dead air comes from and we know where it has to go, so what you're talking about is apparently some invisible, mysterious and really arcane method of getting it from A to B.

Why do we have to get the dead air from point A to B? Its nothing invisible, arcane, or even mysterious. Furthermore, its the basis that has been used for since 1968 when the first emissions standards ushered in the end of the muscle car era. Hint: compare a performance cam profile to a stocker.

I guess you could close the exhaust valves early and not completely exhaust the cylinder, leaving some spent gasses in the cylinder but that would really screw up the operation of the engine, seeing as how it's basically just a big air pump in the first place

That would mean we have about 40 years worth of screwed up engines, which is not far from the truth. :-laf Your a lot closer to the truth than you know.



Closng the exhaust valve early would interfere with the overlap and we need the overlap between intake and exhaust to promote cylinder scavenging. The air flow from intake to exhaust promotes a swirl in the cylinder to scavenge it but it also tends to mix the incoming charge with the existing air. To promote performance we need to exhaust as much air as possible, good and bad, to make sure we have as much oxygenated air as possible. This is what cam profiles do with overap and valve timing.



Back to your comment, "leaving some spent gasses in the cylinder". How about delaying the opening of the exhaust valve but holding overlap and lift close to the same numbers? We still have an overlap and swirl to scavenge the cylinder, remember incoming air is mixing with the spent charge, but we start the process later and end roughly at the same time. We now have a mixed air charge with exhaust gasses in it.



Wait a minute!!! Isn't that what EGR valves and pipes and intake ducting accomplishes? Have we not accomplshed the EXACT same thing with a LOT less parts? If it walks like a duck... ..... :-laf :-laf





Excerpt from Cummins web sit:



To meet the new emission standards, Cummins applied its technology to provide an in-cylinder solution along with a diesel oxidation catalyst. Cummins developed a new piston combustion bowl and a high flow electronically-controlled wastegated turbocharger to better match boost pressure to engine needs to reduce emissions.



Hmmmm? I do believe the faulty reasoning may not be quite so... ... errr... FAULTY!!!!



Your correct in assuming this could possibly cause a problem with the engine as an air pump, and, it doesn't explain high EGT's etc, etc. Now, what ONE thing that a (HINT HINT) 04. 5+ engine has that NO other 5. 9 has that could possibly add back what we have lost in power, we have lost a little prime on the air pump, and cause the three things I previously pointed out?

 

[Mikie12]

So forget the PowerMax CR or other injector timing advance boxes, and get the a new "performance" ground cam shaft installed???

 

[Dieselnerd]

I give up. This thread is becoming too esoteric for me...

 

[Bob4x4]

I have a 2006 Mega cab 5. 9 that I just recently bought. I was wondering if it has an EGR valve just like my Ford 6. 0 Powerstroke that I sold.

Simple question,simple answer. No it does not have an egr valve



Bob