EGT and DC/Cummins warranty

[ABailey]

Does anybody know what is DC's/Cummins' stance on pyrometers? I want to install gauges on my new truck but I am apprehensive to the possibility that my 5 star stealer and/or Cummins will void the warranty for drilling into the exhaust manifold. I don't feel all that comfortable laying out 5 grand for the ISB and having some schmuck tell me that my $200 pyrometer install negated the warranty.



I know that ATS makes the predrilled manifold but I don’t want to go that route if possible (can DC/Cummins void warranty for changing the manifold?) Have any of you EGT users been hustled for this by the stealers? Any feedback would be appreciated.



Ffinally have any of you non fueling box owners been accused by the stealers for using them just because of the presence of gauges? I don’t plan to use a fueling box just yet.

 

[LSMITH]

My dealer asked me what it was kinda scary taking your truck to someone that doesn't know what a pyro probe or guage is. If it ever needs engine work I think it will go to Cummins out of my own pocket. The only thing that it could hurt is the turbo. If you snuff a turbo you could have a hassle, but I think you are safe otherwise.

 

[Dr.Kayak]

Had mine to the dealer last week. They had nothing to say about the gauges or my non-stock air fiter.

 

[Snow man]

Guages should help in the event of a claim,it shows that you care enough to want to know what they are. It also is a giveaway of a bombed truck,IMO. if they see guages,they might keep on looking for other (fueling) mods.

 

[HC]

If you're really not going to use a fueling box, then IMO you should consider going against the majority and installing your gauge post-turbo. That location may be less accurate for monitoring excessive heat/fueling, but it is more accurate for monitoring turbo cool-down. It may not provide the instantaneous read-out needed to back out of the throttle at the drag strip after installing monster injectors or the latest box, but I think it gets the job done for situations like a long hill climb, where it is much, much more responsive than the other indicators, like water temperature. And the post-turbo install essentially eliminates any chance of turbo damage due to loose chips or broken probes.

 

[redram]

Installing the pyro downstream of the turbo is for convenience only for those who do not want to tap the exhaust manifold. It would only void the warranty if the modification could be shown to have caused the failure. The only two that I can think of is a failed manifold due to cracking propagating from the tapped hole or a failed turbo because it ingested a failed temperature probe.

The second should only happen if it's a substandard guage or if the driver did not pay attention to temperatures in which case the piston will probably melt down also.



In the case of a failed probe, you would chase the gauge / probe manufacturer for the failure of the probe but let's get real here, you're rarely going to fail a temperature probe unless something from the exhaust gas flow were to impact it, such as carbon / soot breaking free from the piston land area.



I race a rotary powered race car with K style temperature probes that see 1550-1700 *F only 2 inches inches from the combustion chamber. I have never had a temperature probe fail. If you buy quality equipment, the chances of failure resulting in secondary problems is going to be extremely low.



Use the after the turbo installation point if the idea of drilling the manifold just doesn't sit right with you but don't use it because you're afraid of hurting the turbo. That's just not an issue IMHO.



That would be similar to someone refusing to use radial tires because of the occasional steel belt that goes out of round and only using bias belted tires instead.

 

[RustyJC]

Who knows what DC would do regarding warranty - it's commonplace, however, with large industrial engines to have type K thermocouples at the exhaust of every cylinder as well as a pre-turbo probe in the manifold. As an engine manufacturer, we feel that the benefits accruing from our customers having this information outweighs the minor risk associated with a probe failure (rare as hen's teeth, unless we get a bad batch of probes from a vendor!)



Rusty

 

[illflem]

Originally posted by redram

Installing the pyro downstream of the turbo is for convenience only for those who do not want to tap the exhaust manifold. I



Use the after the turbo installation point if the idea of drilling the manifold just doesn't sit right with you but don't use it because you're afraid of hurting the turbo. That's just not an issue IMHO.

Glad somebody finally said that, my sentiments exactly.

 

[JStemann]

I asked Cummins

I asked about warranty issues, exhaust temps and best location for pyro. Reads to me like they would prefer the pyro be post turbo.



Here's a copy of the reply I got from Cummins:



Summary: Exhaust temp



Solution:



Thanks for your E-mail message about exhaust gas temperatures.



Under full load, most Cummins engines produce exhaust temperatures in the cylinder about 1300 degF or so, on the engine dynomometer. Typically, over-the-road trucks measure EGT from two to six inches after the turbocharger in the exhaust pipe and at that point the EGT temp will be in the 700 to 900 degF range, under 'full load'.



In the Dodge Ram application, it is not likely the engine could be ran at 'full load' operation in the chassis but if it could or if overfueled, the exhaust EGT ahead of the turbocharger should not exceed the 900 to 1100 degF range. The exact temperature will vary on different applications with different pyrometers and the location of the temperature probe.



The pyrometer measures exhaust temperature and the probe is usually mounted about 2 to 6 inches from the turbo outlet (after the turbo) and in that area the exhaust temperature under 'full load' conditions should be in the 700 to 900 degF range. The pyrometer probe could be installed ahead of the turbo for maximum exhaust temperature out of the cylinders (900 to 1100 degF), however, if the probe ever fails it goes directly into the turbocharger and will likely cause a catastrophic failure of the turbocharger.



Thank you for your interest in Cummins power or products. Please let us know if you need assistance in locating the nearest Cummins-authorized distributor or dealer. Please feel free to use our International Dealer Locator: (http://www.cummins.com/partserv/intro.html) found on the Customer Assistance page of the Cummins website (www.cummins.com).



Let us know if you have other questions, or if away from your computer (or you have a time-critical request that needs more urgent attention), feel free to call us (toll-free, from North America) at 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357), or 1-812-377-5000 (toll call, worldwide, ask for 800-DIESELS).



Regards,

--

Powermaster

Customer Assistance Center

Cummins, Inc.

Columbus, Indiana, USA

Email: -- email address removed --

 

[Dr.Kayak]

the exhaust EGT ahead of the turbocharger should not exceed the 900 to 1100 degF range. . That's funny. My completely stock truck could produce 1400+ preturbo egt. A better flowing air filter reduced that to 1300 or so.

 

[pwr2tow]

DC holds the warranty for the cummins engine not cummins. After my experience with the stealer and haveing my warranty voided on the whole truck, I would recommend writeing a letter to DC and get it in writeing from them if it is O. K.



People also told me that they can not void your warranty on anything but the parts it causes to fail, been there done that, they have way more money for court fees then I do.



I hate to see anyone go through the hassle I did, It isn't worth it.

Do what your consience tells you to and if you decide to change anything, just keep in mind ( I am my own warranty station ).



Ron

 

[Dave MacArthur]

I would only do it if you are ready to become your own warranty station. When the service manager at the local dealership walked by my truck he said "I see you have a non stock tire size (255/85's). We automatically void the driveline warranty's on all trucks with non stock tires that come in for warranty work. I just wanted to warn you about our policy. " They are a 5 star dealer. I was just there to pick up a part.

 

[rkressg]

If you think that is bad, My 5-star dealer compalined about me running Fleetguard Filters. They wanted me to run only Mopar filters (more expensive than Fleetguard and not as good). They did not know that D/C recomends the Cummins Fleetguard filters. This just reinforces my thoughts that D/C will only employ idots. I just love the fact I have to get my truck worked on for warranty issues by a group of people who have no idea how a diesel works. I just enjoy having to explain the problems, then how to fix them. Granted, I have many years expriecne working on rather large CAT diesels and heavy equipment, my smallest wrenches are bigger than their largest, still a diesel is a diesel. I just love how D/C people have no idea about their vehicles, how they work, what parts to use, and how to fix them. Even more they do not like it when I sit and correct the terms that my service manager uses when talking about the workings of a diesel.

 

[RJOL]

Totally Agree - Here's My Challenge...

Originally posted by illflem







Glad somebody finally said that, my sentiments exactly.

The potential problems with a pre-turbo egt probe are overstated, and over quoted. I challenge any TDR member to post if they have ever had a pre-turbo probe break off and take out the turbo. I'm not interested in someone who heard someone else had heard they had a problem... If you have a FIRST HAND experience with this... . let's hear it... I don't think there will be many posts... .

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Dave MacArthur

I would only do it if you are ready to become your own warranty station. When the service manager at the local dealership walked by my truck he said "I see you have a non stock tire size (255/85's). We automatically void the driveline warranty's on all trucks with non stock tires that come in for warranty work. I just wanted to warn you about our policy. " They are a 5 star dealer. I was just there to pick up a part.

Did that dealer have any trucks on it's lot with oversize tires &/or lift kits installed by the dealer? They probably did - every dealer I've been to has. I wonder if they'll void the warranty on a truck they sold with oversize tires... ...



Brian

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I agree that the pre-turbo pyro probe failure thing is WAAAAY over stated! In aircraft applications they are ALWAYS mounted pre-turbo, they are label TIT (turbo inlet temperature) and in that application they are running at high temps all the time. If there was hardly any risk at all of a tip letting go and going through the turbo there's NO WAY the FAA would allow it! JMHO

 

[Bad340fish]

Some the dealers you guys go to may not sell many cummins trucks at all. . therefore of course they would have little knowledge of how one works or even how to service one. I know I have read of people on TDR that had to order a truck with a cummins since thier dealer did not stock them. That would be a red flag in my book... if they don't sell them they sure as hell will not know how to work on them.



However if you live in a place like Oklahoma more than half of the truck inventory on any given dodge dealers lot is Cummins powered trucks . The dealer that i take my truck in for warranty work at(only once) has one guy that does nothing but work on diesel trucks . That service area sounds like a truckstop in the morning

 

[LSMITH]

The pre-turbo probe going through the turbo would likely be the result of incorrect installation. Steve makes a good point, the EGT pre-turbo of an airplane engine would pump slag out the pipe of the mighty Cummins. Over 1600* for hours on end is not uncommon. If the chance of the probe breaking off was even remotely possible it would be against the rules to use in an airplane. Installed correctly I see no risk of the probe failing. Getting back to the original question, the facts do not have to be in the dealers favor for them to deny any claim you might have. Seems to me that finding the right dealer is WAY more important than anything else when you need service.

 

[RedRamer]

pre-post turbo intall

Here's what Diesel Injection of Pittsburg has to say on the matter... .



Let's start with the pyrometer. Always install the thermocouple, or probe, in the exhaust manifold. If you use a Hewitt pyrometer or thermocouple it will not burn off and wipe out the turbo. We have been doing this for 21 years and have never lost one. You will have to drill and tap the pulse manifold to install the probe.



http://www.dieselinjection.net/articles.html



(do a search on "pyro" to find the quote in this very long article"



In my instructions, Hewitt recommended pre-turbo and says their pyros are built to take the heat.

 

[HC]

Re: Totally Agree - Here's My Challenge...

The potential problems with a pre-turbo egt probe are overstated, and over quoted. I challenge any TDR member to post if they have ever had a pre-turbo probe break off and take out the turbo.

I can only meet part of this challenge, but I am not merely quoting others. My POST turbo mounted probe DID break off. Being post-turbo, there was no potential for danger. And yes, it was caused by improper installation, done by my normally competent 5-star dealer. And yes, SPA has since changed their design and gone to a much thicker thermocouple. But when all is said and done, I have personally seen the broken stub that used to be my probe, so I can not dismiss the possibility of lost probes as easily as those who have never seen or heard of one. Let me close by saying, pre or post, if you do the install yourself, follow all instructions to the letter. If you let someone else do it, only allow someone who had done it many times before, on exactly the same application, to work on your truck. (I talked to the tech who did mine before turning him loose - he had done multiple installs of other brands on big trucks, but my truck was his first installation of an SPA on a Dodge/Cummins. )



P. S. - Hey, you don't need my VIN # to believe me, do you?