Elevated EGT and surging while running?

[Bouma]

Hello fellow TDR members,

Need your help withfiguring out my 2006 5. 9's runnability issues. My truck has started to do a few weird things lately. First off when it is cold I will start it and pull it out of the garage for a quick warm up 5-10 minutes at most. My truck will go to high idle as they all do. However it sounds like it is chugging or surging. Standing next to the tail pipe you can hear a surging sound comimg from the exhaust. However once you tap the brake it will go back to idle as it shoud and sound normal. I have also noticed very randomly when sitting idling, like hooking up a trailer it will almost cough. It will be idling normal and very random it will make a surg or cough shound, about 2 seconds long. I normally pull open trailers so wind drag is not as big of a deal to me. However today I pulled a 16' cargo trailer and the truck acted like it was working? My egt probe is post turbo and read 800-1000 degrees for awhile. The coolant temp was up also. Nothing alarming but just a touch over 200-215. I have a Mopar winter cover but all the flaps were open. I find it crazy that this truck worked so hard to pul a 16 foot enclosed trailer with one ATV in it. Any idea's A Hemi in the 2500 chasisie whould have no issue with this load. I know because I have a company truck with a hemi and I pulled the load in od with no issues as a comparisson. This is not a large load, I had one ATV in the trailer, thats it.

P. S. I have owned this truck since new. I haved changed the fuel filter religiously every other oil change since new.

P. P. S The truck has no tunner on it and never has

Thanks,

JB

 

[jgillott]

Do you have any codes present?

 

[Bouma]

no codes at this time

 

[SierraRam]

I hear what may be called a difference in loading/surging when the grid heaters are cycling. Your temperatures do not seem that high to me. What would your truck normally run with the other trailers you pull?

 

[Bouma]

It is not the grid heater cycling. The engine is actually surging. The truck can be running for two hours and be parked for 10 minutes on a very cold day, go to high idle and start surging. The grid heater is not cycling at these times. My EGT's pulling my 16' car hauler or my 25' gooseneck are about the same. I very rairly see more than 850.

 

[cerberusiam]

The truck can be running for two hours and be parked for 10 minutes on a very cold day, go to high idle and start surging. The grid heater is not cycling at these times.

That is not strictly true. Any time it goes to high idle when cold the grid heaters are likely cycling. That is the ECU's attempt at emisisons control with cold intake air temp.

The "lope" in high idle is a peculiarity that some trucks exhibit when conditions are just right. The ECU is splitting the injection event with advanced timing. The initial event is running out steam by the time the second one fires and it sounds like a surge or a lope. It is how the ECU is attempting to warm the combustion process faster. Depending on how good your fuel system and injectors are, youw ill get some weird sounding idle characteristics. Some trucks do it from new in one for or another while some take some time and wear to show it.

The lack of power and higher than normal EGT's and engine temp during driving is another thing entirely. That does not sound good at all if it is frequently happening. Low rail pressure could account for those symptoms.

Did you actually scan the truck for codes with a code reader that has the Dodge software loaded? The key trick does not work on an 06 and some scanners simply will not read the DTC's correctly. It takes a Dodge code reader or high end scanner to do it and get all the info.

You probably need to drive the truck and try to replicate the symptoms with a scanner attached so it can log the pertinent sensor info.

 

[Bouma]

That is not strictly true. Any time it goes to high idle when cold the grid heaters are likely cycling. That is the ECU's attempt at emisisons control with cold intake air temp.

The "lope" in high idle is a peculiarity that some trucks exhibit when conditions are just right. The ECU is splitting the injection event with advanced timing. The initial event is running out steam by the time the second one fires and it sounds like a surge or a lope. It is how the ECU is attempting to warm the combustion process faster. Depending on how good your fuel system and injectors are, youw ill get some weird sounding idle characteristics. Some trucks do it from new in one for or another while some take some time and wear to show it.

The lack of power and higher than normal EGT's and engine temp during driving is another thing entirely. That does not sound good at all if it is frequently happening. Low rail pressure could account for those symptoms.

Did you actually scan the truck for codes with a code reader that has the Dodge software loaded? The key trick does not work on an 06 and some scanners simply will not read the DTC's correctly. It takes a Dodge code reader or high end scanner to do it and get all the info.

You probably need to drive the truck and try to replicate the symptoms with a scanner attached so it can log the pertinent sensor info.

Cerberusiam thanks for the responce!

I don't want to debate how the truck opperates with you. I'm sure you are correct in your statement. My statement applys to the fact that i know it is NOT cycling the grid heater. Also my truck will do this 100% of the time it goes into high idle. It may not do it imidiatly but it will eventually. My truck sat outside last night with a trailer hooked to it last night. I started it this afternoon. The truck fired and instantly was at high idle, it never idled normally. The truck sounded fine for a couple of minutes. Then it started this chugging on and off. Then it just chugged for another 8 minutes or so. I finially stopped when it cut high idle and returned to normal. At normal idle it runs normal.

I have a company truck that is a 2009 2500 hemi 4wd. It is a quad cab short box like my diesel. I pulled the enclosed trailer home from work to go on an atv trip. I loaded the quad (polaris sportsman 800) and then swapped truck. Once my diesel was pulling the trailer if felt like it had to work harder than the Hemi. I have said that once I replace this truck I will go back to gas because the only trailer I pull often is with 2 ATV's.

The pyro probe is after the turbo. I was always told that i would need to add 200 degrees to be more acurate do to placement of the probe. If thats the case and I hit 1,000 in my head I am at 1,200. From what I know this is a problem. I also see these trucks pulling huge trailers. My Hemi should have nothing for this 5. 9.

My friend borowed a snap on reader to pull codes.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yeah, if it doesn't do it immediately it is software causing the lope\surge when in cold high idle. That has been pretty well documented by multiple people and one of the tinkerers put a scope on it when it when into that lope that showed it was the injection event being split evenly instead of a pilot and main event. With the advanced timing like I explained it does sound like a surge, a miss, a lope, and definitely different. That I don't think is an issue unless it is a symptom. Whether or not the grid heaters are actually running is really secondary to the discussion.



Here is my recent experience to consider with a lot of the same symptoms. Started the truck 3 or 4 days with the temp in the 30's and happened to listen to the exhaust and first thought was; Crap, more problems to chase down. To this point it has NEVER missed or surged in a cold idle or high idle. In high idle it sounded like a miss and and a surge that was in time with the grid heater. It was cranking a little slower than I thought it should with new batteries but still popped off right on schedule. Figured I either had an injector starting to go or maybe the alternator was starting to get weak. Finally got enough time to open the hood and start investigating and I find the passenger ground cable off the battery and laying along side the battery box. DOH!! No wonder it cranked a little slow, surged and sounded like a miss when the grids kicked in, its running on ONE BATTERY!!!



Fixed the problem with the cable (that is a story for another time and kids that use my truck for things they are NOT supposed to ), problem solved. No more flaky high idle, no more miss surge, etc. From that experience, check how good your batteries are, cable end connections, etc, no matter if it sounds decent cranking, starts fine, new batteries, etc. A bad connection on ONE cable will cause some weird stuff to happen on a cold start and idle.



I think as a rule the difference between pre and post turbo is mor on the lines of 300 degrees. Either way, your aboserved readings are out of the normal range as you saw from previous experience. That indicates a fuel delivery issue somewhere. Whether it is LP, CP-3 or ??? is hard to tell without some research. Something is going on there that you need to investigate. The Snap-On may or may not read everything correctly. Depends on the module and its updates. Then again there may be no codes so it is still agusssing game without boost, LP pressure, rail pressure, and manidolf EGT's to look at. Even then you might need to data log it to see where the problem really is. Could be a sticky FCA that is intermittently shorting fuel at a certain rpm, or a failing LP, or ???

 

[Bouma]

I am scheduling my truck to get checked out. I will keep you posted as to what they say. If I have a failing lift pump that would be the time to look at a fass system or an air dog correct? My guess from the things listed, LP, CP-3, injectors, etc this is going to sting a little price wise? So is there any fix, re-flash or tunner that will fix the lope/ surge? I did just replace the batteries a month or so ago. Just double checked them, all good. I replaced them do to trying to hunt down an extended crank situation. A buddy of mine who works on fords said put batteries in it, he said in a PS it will make a difference. I had OE batteries. It fixed it! I have never had it since. Never would have guessed that. One last question, when is it time to cut bait and run? I have become really used to not having a truck payment. The truck itself is really in great shape. No rust, dents, dings, etc. My dad asked the question since it still looks so good I could get top dollar for it maybe i should look at that. However I would look at a gas truck next time, all the emisions crap scares me on the new diesels. When do you cash out so to speak and move on. The truck has just over 99,000 on it.

 

[cerberusiam]

The stock lift pump works well, I have over 200k and no issues. Same with a pretty much all the components uless I did it by over powering it. I had 10k of minimal maintenance until it was time to replace steering and suspension parts and no major engine issues. Jinxed myself now. LOL! I will gladly replace and rebuild as many things as possible NOT to have a truck payment, worse mpg, inability to tinker, etc, as long as I can. Everybodies pain point is different, you have to define yours. Then again I am still fixing and uisng Gen I's for DD and towing so my perspective is a bit different.

Your problem could as simple as a bad sensor, or, maybe the ECU. The 06's were inclined towards ECU issues byt the cost for a reman ECU is far less than a new truck. Get some doagnostics and testing done before thrwoing in the towel and don't let them just throw parts at it on your dime.

 

[Bouma]

I know what you are saying about the truck payment. I hate the idea of one. I am taking it to a company that just does diesel injection work, actually that is the name of the business Diesel Injection Service. They have been highly recommended to me by others that have used them. My neighbor has a dmax they put injectors in. They were new not the reman stuff. He had one fail 18 months later. He called them up, they said bring it in. They replaced the injector, didn't charge him a dime. They apologized for the issue. I figure i will give them a shot. They sounded very familiar with my truck. Keeping my fingers crossed. I have always wanted to tune mine, but have not wanted to hurt anything. I have thought hard about a Smarty jr or a Banks eco mind or six gun. I would love to have a little more power but can I still keep it safe? I obviously know your right foot plays a big role in that.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yes, a little power can make things much more interesting and can be safely done. Requires a little work on the stock transmission but not exorbitant if the right foot is trainable.

 

[Bouma]

FCA was bad. They also advised me since warranty is no longer there to get rid of the cat. I currently have a magnaflow 5" cat back exhaust. So I am looking to do a turbo back now. My 5" is plenty loud enough for me. I'm sure with the cat removed it will get louder. With that said I have heard people say that with a 5" turbo back you loose performance unless you are over 500hp. Thoughts? Ordering a smarty jr also. Loking to make this a good towing rig, not a racer.

 

[cerberusiam]

Without the CAT you might loose some spool and low end TQ with a 5" exhaust. With a tuner oyu can compensate with the TQ management adjustment. Also, adding down pipe wrap, a turbo boot, and manifold blanket will help in that area also.

Even a 4" without a CAT is louder. I have an AeroTurbine 4040XL and an 18" resonator in a 4" and its got bark to it. Empty it is noticeable but not bad. Need to try it yet with a heavy load but if exhaust noise and drone bother you it could be an issue. The exhaust sounds really good but was hoping for a little more damping of the bark at lower throttle.

 

[Bob4x4]

FCA was bad. They also advised me since warranty is no longer there to get rid of the cat. I currently have a magnaflow 5" cat back exhaust. So I am looking to do a turbo back now. My 5" is plenty loud enough for me. I'm sure with the cat removed it will get louder. With that said I have heard people say that with a 5" turbo back you loose performance unless you are over 500hp. Thoughts? Ordering a smarty jr also. Loking to make this a good towing rig, not a racer.

I would keep the cat. In some dyno testing I did years back it was only worth about 4hp removing it at the 400hp level. I may be getting old but a 5'' system is too loud for me by the end of a day of towing. Mark my words smog testing on diesels will eventually hit all 50 states.

 

[sag2]

If you get the Smarty be prepared to do the transmission in the near future.

 

[Bouma]

Without the CAT you might loose some spool and low end TQ with a 5" exhaust. With a tuner oyu can compensate with the TQ management adjustment. Also, adding down pipe wrap, a turbo boot, and manifold blanket will help in that area also.



Even a 4" without a CAT is louder. I have an AeroTurbine 4040XL and an 18" resonator in a 4" and its got bark to it. Empty it is noticeable but not bad. Need to try it yet with a heavy load but if exhaust noise and drone bother you it could be an issue. The exhaust sounds really good but was hoping for a little more damping of the bark at lower throttle.

I know the truck will get louder without the cat. That's why I was thinking changing the whole thing to like a 4" turbo back magnaflow. I like a deep exhaust note but towing for hours with a drone gets old. I have a friend with a 6" bully dog exhaust, it is terrible. Ridding in that truck when he has his tri axle toy hauler in tow will drive me nuts. Will it drone too much with a 4"?

 

[Bouma]

I would keep the cat. In some dyno testing I did years back it was only worth about 4hp removing it at the 400hp level. I may be getting old but a 5'' system is too loud for me by the end of a day of towing. Mark my words smog testing on diesels will eventually hit all 50 states.

Bob you have to be the only guy I have ever heard say keep it? Is there an article or study that supports your 4hp statement?

 

[Bouma]

If you get the Smarty be prepared to do the transmission in the near future.

Even with a jr? I was thinking of running either 40-70 hp tune. Like I said looking for more of a tug vehicle that a racecar. I know control of your right foot plays a big role in this. When I read the Madds website they state stock trucks. They state it will work with a stock trans. It this marketing BS?

 

[JR]

They go county by county for emissions testing here. Pennsylvania to the east of us does e checks as well as the counties south and west of us. (North is Lake Erie). If they ever go to e checks here half the cars would be forced off the road :-laf. If you do choose to remove the cat, your definitely going to want a resonator or muffler or both depending on your noise tolerance. . Ive got a 5" with a short resonator and I dont think its too loud at all but thats just me. If I ever replace it it will be with a 4" the only reason I bought the 5 was because I paid half price for it new. I put the resonator close to the down pipe right under the cab to help keep drone to a minimum.