Engine oil questions

[deaner70]

Help me out here, what is the difference in "CJ" and "CI" oil?

Intervals seem to be all over the charts here with everyone. Mine has Amsoil in it and has had from day 1. What are some good other options out there? Anyone run Cenpeco or Schaeffers oil. Both are pretty popular around here. Also heard about some Valvoline "blue" synthectic?

WHen I bought my 1st gen 91 in '93, I ran stricktly Rotella "T" and wix filters. All the oil talk is about as confusing as fathers day in harlem to me. Just looking for some advice to keep major repairs away. I DO NOT mind spending the money to do it right.

THANKS in advance

 

[Tuesdak]

Engines like the same oil. So if your engine has been using it forever - stay with it. If you run UOA, used oil analysis, you can see the results of changing oil brands sometimes as sudden high copper from the oil cooler due to different additives until the engine gets used to it. Oil consumption and new leaks are also a concern with changing oils. (For example my 2003 engine drank, extreme oil consumption, Royal Purple and flashed high copper on a UOA. Another oil is doing way better.)

A CI oil would be a better choice for your non-emission truck if you can still get it other than AMSOIL. We had nasty UOA results from the early CJ-4 oils bottom line is it didn't last as long in old engines as the CI oil and didn't do well in the 2008 engine we ran it in. I have ruined engine oil to the point of piston scuffing so YMMV. I understand that the oil was reformulated for longer life since 2008/9 so it may do better now. Again the only way to know is a UOA program.

Further reading:

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/tdrarticles/tdrarticle54_CJ4LubeOil.html
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/tdrarticles/tdrarticle56_lubeoilspecs.html
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf

 

[rscurtis]

You'll find that in your '03 you can stretch the oil changes way beyond the owner's manual recommendations and it will still tests fine.

 

[MLee]

Those links posted are a lot of information on oils. You can do the "E" edition on the web site if you don't have the printed issues.

 

[AH64ID]

The oil analysis from TDR57 is out of date and essentially useless at this point and most of the oils are no longer available, and it also excluded Amsoil AME which is the best and most popular Amsoil CI-4 oil. AME is still available for sale, and it probably the best option for non EGR/DPF engines.

Personally I would stick with Amsoil, preferably the AME.

 

[AH64ID]

The oil analysis from TDR57 is out of date and essentially useless at this point and most of the oils are no longer available, and it also excluded Amsoil AME which is the best and most popular Amsoil CI-4 oil. AME is still available for sale, and it probably the best option for non EGR/DPF engines.

Personally I would stick with Amsoil, preferably the AME.

 

[JR]

Any off the shelf CJ4 oil will protect your engine just as well as any comparable CI4. This has been proven with oil analysis for many years now. I bet 98% of the population (or more) run CJ4 oil in their pre emissions engines accumulating hundreds of millions of miles every year witb ZERO oil related failures. CI4 would not pass many of the tests required to meet the CJ4 specs. If you live in a cold environment, 5w40 synthetic will provide better cold start protection

 

[Tuesdak]

Any off the shelf CJ4 oil will protect your engine just as well as any comparable CI4. This has been proven with oil analysis for many years now. I bet 98% of the population (or more) run CJ4 oil in their pre emissions engines accumulating hundreds of millions of miles every year witb ZERO oil related failures. CI4 would not pass many of the tests required to meet the CJ4 specs. If you live in a cold environment, 5w40 synthetic will provide better cold start protection

I disagree with 'pre emissions engines accumulating hundreds of millions of miles every year witb ZERO oil related failures'. Maybe this is your experience, but, not mine and there is a reason the oils were re-formulated. (Specific to the Shell Rotella we were using.) When it first arrived CJ4 has horrible TBN numbers in UOA and used in the designed application, 2008 Duramax, did not make over 10K per oil change. UOA confirmed the oil was stick a fork in it done. Compare to the 15K oil changes of a 2003 Cummins on CI oil. Further in extreme heat we were one of the few to make GM consider "buffering" the low oil pressure stop engine alarm when the pressure spiked below 9 PSI while shifting into drive after idling. (Extreme heat, AC on and prior towing of max weight cargo trailer to get it good and hot.) We had to add a 2 quart auxiliary oil cooler to knock this low oil pressure condition off. Synthetic oil was another option we should have looked closer at. (Synthetic = Expensive when you change the oil weekly due to miles.)

The worst is scuffing a piston while using CJ4 oil in a 6.5 TD. UOA was very bad at 3K miles - just no reserve in the oil and this is with 1 quart boiling off every 500 miles in this engine when loaded. So the engine had used up oil even though it was replaced 100% with make up oil before a change. The better soot capacity for a dirty engine like the 6.5 you would think would have helped, but, the trade offs to get there make the oil IMO worse. Edit: To be clear the manual calls for 2500 mile oil changes and just one more day running changing at 3000 miles the oil was over it's limit. The oil didn't even last a week, 5 workdays, and was dangerous to push it for that 5th day. So rather than a weekend oil change at my leisure it's being changed on a random 2AM weeknight during a brief downtime with a hot engine.

Bottom line is we don't push the limit of the CJ4 oil because even with the normal limits it's at the edge of oil failure. I haven't run that hard since they reformulated the oil and I also use other oil brands now. IMO it's all worse so I tend to buy what is on sale - that is until the copper spiked reminding me that engines do like the same oil no matter how common/shared additives are - some are different enough to matter. I do resent being an EPA guinea pig as the above two oil related items were expensive and the reduced MPG for 2007+ emissions also cost me a lot of fuel money.

 

[JR]

Your all over the place on your comparisons. Duramaxs and 6.5s on CJ vs a Cummins on CI? How is any of this relevant?

And no they are not my experiences, although I do run 20k intervals on CJ4 oil and my UOA shows better than half the additives remaining with consistent viscosity. How many people do you suppose go out of their way to order CI oil? Given the fact that it has not been available on the shelf for many years now I'd say my statements are very accurate. Show me an oil related failure in an otherwise healthy engine in the last 5 years. I'll bet you cant.

 

[deaner70]

The AMsoil is Heavy Duty diesel/marine that was in it when I bought it, and what came with it to change the oil. I am just looking for other options. How about Valvoline Blue . On sale at the local Advance auto for 13.99 gallon. Also heard about Mobile, conventional? how about Castrol, or even Motorcrafts Diesel oil? Fuel/oil guy said alot of guys are running 5W40 diesel oil now. THoughts? Is anyone running Schaeffers? Cenpeco?

 

[JR]

Schaeffers is top notch stuff. Its what I run my 20k service intervals with on my truck and the wife's TDI. (9000 5w40) I got in good with my local Schaeffer rep and i buy enough to keep the prices in line with most off the shelf oils. Valvoline Blue is also a good oil, as is the Mobile and Delo products. I prefer run a 5w40 for the added cold weather protection. At operating temp 5w40 is the same viscosity as 15w40, but 5w40 has a better cold start pumpability.
You also have to decide what your comfortable with for extended service intervals. The only way Amsoil or Schaeffers makes sense is if you plan on doing extended service intervals. A trend has to be established with used oil analysis to determine your engines health to safely do this. I recently pieced together a bypass system so I will likely be going further than 20k miles in the future.
If your not comfortable with any of this, I'd go with a good off the shelf product like Mobile or Delo or Valvoline and dump at the OEM specified intervals.

 

[Tuesdak]

Your all over the place on your comparisons. Duramaxs and 6.5s on CJ vs a Cummins on CI? How is any of this relevant?

And no they are not my experiences, although I do run 20k intervals on CJ4 oil and my UOA shows better than half the additives remaining with consistent viscosity. How many people do you suppose go out of their way to order CI oil? Given the fact that it has not been available on the shelf for many years now I'd say my statements are very accurate. Show me an oil related failure in an otherwise healthy engine in the last 5 years. I'll bet you cant.

If you are going to bet me make it worthwhile! Say an AMSOIL engine oil change. :-{} Otherwise I would cheerfully share for the asking.

5 years is a cop out as the CJ4 oil has been out since 2007 and a new MPG "feel good" spec is due out this year. Regardless in the last 5 years only eliminates the 2008 Duramax from the pile leaving lots of impressive carnage.

Fair warning I have impressively documented oil failure already Check out the fuel oil disaster also known as ULSD and Biodiesel. ULSD another 2007 emissions mess.

The 15k vs 10K oil change interval is extremely relevant when the oil change costs $100 and that $100 comes off my bottom line. This is exactly why fleets want to push their oil as long as possible and the CJ4 oil has reduced this extended drain ability when it was first introduced.

Updated link to the last TDR oil article that is more recent than the links above and show changes made since 2007 in some CJ4 oils.

 

[JR]

Your "impressive documentation" is a link on biodiesel, not engine oil.

If your running an engine hot enough to boil a quart every 500 miles as you claim, no oil is going to offer the protection you need. And you said the oil was completely worn out after 3000 miles, yet in those 3000 miles you had replaced 6 quarts of oil? And the CI4 specd oil held up just fine, burned no oil and was able to run past the 2500 service intervals? I'm having a hard time comprehending this.
The biggest difference between the 2 specs is CJ4 has lower amounts of ZDP, sulfur, sulfated ash and Phosphorous. These were all cost effective EP lubricants and anti oxidants, and they work quite well but are not the only options. The viable options for CJ4 oils cost more (hence the higher costs) and do as good a job or better. Per the American Petroleum Institute, the tests required to pass the CJ4 rating are significantly more demanding than the previous CI4 spec. "CJ4 oils are superior in wear protection, deposit and oil consumption control, soot related viscosity control, prevention of viscosity loss from shearing, used low oil temperature pump ability, and protection from thermal and oxidative breakdown."
Again, this is directly from the company that sets the standards.
The other argument people have a hard time letting go of is the lower TBN that CJ4 has. Again, not needed now that we have gone from 500ppm to 15ppm fuel. The TBN on my 15-20k mile oil is generally half or slightly less from what it started out at. Lots of detergents left.

We have several cranes at work (all pre emission) that have been getting CJ4 oil in them since around 08 AND 500ppm off road fuel up until around 2010 when it went to 15ppm as well. Many of these engines are north of 20k hours and still run excellent.


You still have yet to show proof of any oil related failures. I am in no way calling you out, but you have now eluded to this a few times and have yet to show your failures were OIL related and not a result of an overtaxed engine with an inadequate cooling system like we all know the 6.5s were.
Amsoil is one of the only options available anymore that I am aware of that sells a CI4 oil, and they will continue to formulate it so long as the Amsoil faithful continue to buy it. Schaeffers also has a CI4 oil but it is a 50wt racing oil. That leaves an awful lot of pre emission engines on the road day in and day out running CJ4 oil. That alone should speak for itself.

 

[RottonRob]

Last summer we bought a 50 gallon barrel of ci+4 from Chevron..

 

[MLee]

Something to think about--
Where are you storing the drum? Are you concerned about condensation inside the drum? It might be if you have it stored where there is fluctuating temperatures. This might be a big concern. Constent temps should be Ok, I would think.
Good find, wish I could a ford a drum of it.

 

[RottonRob]

Storing the drum in my brothers garage...He uses it in his farm equipment also...

 

[deaner70]

going with another Amsoil change. 15W40 synthetic diesel/marine oil and filter

 

[ColemanR]

Been running Delo 400 in my 06 Cummins since day one this motor has 600k on it all towing. I change the oil about every 15k it uses maybe a 1/2 gal needless to say I will keep doing what Im doing.

 

[User113]

Here you are - CI4:

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...ynthetic-SAE-5W40/_/R-SHR550019901_0006406874

Grab 'em while they last.

 

[JR]

^^^That is CJ4 spec. Just like the Delo 400 ColemanR has been running most of his 600k miles.