Archived Engine Will Not Crank

[MAYoung]

Basics: 1998. 5 Dodge 2500 Quad Cab 4x4, Stock Equipment,Except Fuel Pressure Gauge; 206,241 Miles, Original Owner,

5 Speed NV4500 Manual Transmission



Problem: Engine Will Not Crank



Description:



1. Added 10 gallons of biodiesel and after a few starts, engine would require multiple revolutions to start where in the past it had always started with a single touch of the starter.



2. Added injector cleaner/fuel additive with no improvement.



3. Engine began to turnover as if the batteries were weak. Removed batteries and tested. Batteries ok. Cleaned terminals and connectors. No improvement.



4. Engine turned over more slowly and would finally not crank at all. I got a check engine light--P0121--low voltage to the throttle position sensor.



5. Began to check eletrical system. FUSES checked ok both in and out of cab. Relays? No way to check. Grounding cable connection seemed ok.



6. Crawled under truck to look at starter. STARTER was loose. Re-torqued bolts and I thought the problem was solved.



7. Still no cranking. Instrument panel lights will respond. I can hear the fuel heater relay come on and turn off. I DO NOT HEAR THE LIFT PUMP WHIRRING/BUZZING as in the past. No starter click or anyother firewall forward sound.



Please help. I must move a horse before the next weather system arrives in California. I am convinced that it is electrical but I do not know where to look next. Suggestions? Starter? ECM?



Thank you in advance,



Mark Young

Sacramento, California

 

[FourBarR]

sounds like your starter contacts are shot. Not an uncommen problem. You can try a old trick to rap the starter with a hammer may get you started. other wise remove starter . Try going to LarryB's Dodge starting problems solved here. . Best place for help with starter problems.

 

[MAYoung]

I will try rapping the starter with a rubber mallet and see if that helps. Starter is not that old or heavily used. Could the high current resistence have damaged the contacts? Still, I have no sound of the lift pump coming on so I am still worried about a electrical problem beyond the starter.



I have also picked up from other posts that the ignition lead at the battery terminal can be damaged or cut. I am checking that out as well.



As clarification, to clear the P0121 code, I disconnected the battery terminals. Code is no longer present but truck will not crank.



Thank you for your assistance.



Mark Young

 

[Missouri Mule]

MAYoung,Pull starter and pull cap of starter solenoid and check contacts, usually battery side is worn way down( I take it your starter is not turning).



For lift/tranfer pump taking the fuel pressure would be the best thing to do but you can also loosen the banjo bolt on the supply to the fuel filter to see if any fuel is getting to it. If there is loosen the bano bolt on the supply line to the vp44 to see if fuel is getting to it. Then checkto see if fuel is getting to the injectors.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Mark,

When you had the batteries checked, were they fully charged and properly load tested, and both pass with flying colors? The low voltage to the TPS code and pump makes me wonder. All of the battery cables tight and in good condition?
How bright are the headlights, especially when attempting to crank the motor... voltmeter reading?
If all of those items checked good you may have an issue with the starter contacts as the others have mentioned. Maybe even toasted a winding or worn out the brushes after all those miles.

 

[JLandry]

Dumb questions...

When you say the engine won't crank, do you mean the engine is now not turning over at all? Or do you mean it will turn over but just won't start and run?

What's the battery voltage right now?

Have you tried jump starting it from another vehicle? I ask because I wonder if the batteries are low.

Good luck,

John L.

 

[MAYoung]

Gentlemen:





Thank you all for the quick responses. I see a number of good suggestions.



1. The engine will not turnover at all. Zip, zero, nada. No clicks, no rat-tat-rat-tat, no buzzing. No lift pump sound either. Only click sound is the small clicks that one gets in the cab from the gauges.



2. The starter was replaced in February 2008 at 184,000. The starter was completely rebuilt by a good local shop. Is it possible that I fried the contacts or windings with the starter being loose?



3. The batteries were charged and tested under load. Both were acceptable although one was a bit lower than the other. Output voltage was about 12. 5 volts. Battery terminals were cleaned and tightened. I checked for corrosion build-up on other connectors. Lights seem bright and normal.



4. I am going to try the following items:

a) Rapping the starter with a rubber mallet.

b) Give the truck a jump start from another vehicle and see if that perks up

the electrical system in any way.

c) If still not working, pull the starter and have it tested at a local shop.

d) Further investigate any connections on the electrical system.

e) Check to see if any fuel is coming from the lift pump to the injector pump.



Starter and electrical problems can be tricky but all of your suggestions have merit. I remember that when I replaced the starter 3 years ago it solved numerous voltage issues on the truck.



I have to go and move a horse now. I will not be able to work on the truck until tomorrow AM--in the rain, of course. The storm is here.



Thanks again,



Mark Young

 

[Sticks]

You need to see what the volts are during cranking. If lower than 9 your truck will not start, even with a good starter. I'd also like to know the amperage draw during cranking. IIRC should be around 200.

BTW... Biofuel is the devil.

Presuming your serpentine belt and tensioner is in good condition, get a 22mm socket & ratchet and try to rotate the engine by hand via the alternator (clockwise at the alt while facing the engine) just to make sure you are not seized or hydro-locked.

I don't have access to a 98. 5 manulal but IIRC there are some fuse-able links in there somewhere. The ECM controls the transfer pump, but I do not know if there is a separate power supply to the ECM on that circuit.

First things first, get that engine cranking (maybe jump the signal wire at the starter to the B+ line - take proper safety precautions!!)

 

[JMarketos]

Firstly I admit that I do not have knowledge of 2nd gen trucks, so maybe wise to take input from others before mine. Next, my 0. 02...

I think I "smell" 2 issues here. Maybe it's a coincidental failure of a lift pump. But I think I "smell" some sort of fuel problem, perhaps something associated with the bio fuel. Something with the fuel system caused / required extended cranking, and that extended cranking drained the batteries and possibly exposed a weakness issue with the starter system. Charge the batteries and inspect / clean the battery cable ends at batteries and also at opposite ends, starter and gnd to chassis.

Next, check the fuel filter. Look for water or glop or anything unusual.

If after charging batteries and cleaning battery cables, you still have no lift pump sound, that might point to the LP.

Again, please take input from other 2nd gen gurus over mine. Wish you all the best.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Mark,
Just some ramblin's here...
I dusted off my trusty '98 FSM and tried tracing the wiring using the symptoms reported. There are a number of issues that can cause your problem(s).
Because you say both the starter motor and the lift pump are quiet I would first look in the PDC under the hood at fuse #10, 50A; of course this is assuming well charged batteries. ADD: This feeds the starter motor solenoid among other things. Solenoid is biggest suspect.
Do you have a stick or automatic? The clutch or Park/Neutral switch may defective, but usually would not cause the lift pump to tune out.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

The engine starter motor relay in the PDC controls the starter motor solenoid. Trailer, Starter, Blower, and Fuel Heater should all be interchangeable.

 

[Sticks]

He's got a manual trans. Tripped over another thread of his.

While it is possible the VP could have seized and would have enough to hold the engine from cranking, he would still hear the starter solenoid engage.

More sleep, more likely problems.

Verify you have voltage at the starter.

Hot wire the starter to see if it turns and go from there. If you get a good arc presuming you are not using a remote switch, then I'd pull the starter to see if the drive gear is bound on the flywheel.

If still nothing, then do a voltage drop, may just be a bad wire or connection.

If it cranks start backing up in the circuit to find the problem. Ignition switch???

 

[MAYoung]

Gentlemen:



Update as of Thursday, 1:02 PM PST



I think FourBarR had it right--starter problem. I gave the starter a rap with a rubber mallet. It would crank but with very little ommph--very weak cranking. I jumped the batteries from another car and the starter would turn faster but not lively enough to start.



I am pulling the starter and taking it to my local shop in Sacramento--Lear Electric. They will fix anything related to a starter since they see so many tractor and field equipment starters in their shop.



Thank you for all the excellent suggestions. I will keep you posted as to the final fix.

Lets hope that this will do it.



Thx,



Mark Young

 

[MAYoung]

Gentlemen:



Update as of Thursday, 7:30 PM PST



I have confirmed a bad starter. Not just contacts but windings/motor.



Sorry for the confusion. I originally thought I had a biodiesel problem since the problem began so close to adding the bio-fuel. Then it sounded like a battery problem. I then found the loose starter and I thought that the fix would be as simple as a few torques of a wrench. I guess that I managed to fry the motor on the starter from the high current resistance.



I am indebted to your assistance. Without your help, I would have been trapped working with a shop or..... God forbid... . a dealership! I am always impressed with the knowledge and real world experience that is available through TDR.



Thank you again. I will keep you updated. It has stopped raining enough that I can work on the truck tonight.



Mark Young

 

[Sticks]

Oo. Oo. Oo.

 

[MAYoung]

Gentlemen:



Update as of Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:41 PM PST



New starter is in place and the engine has started like its old self--one click of the key and vvroooomm. Sweet.



I exchanged the old unit for a remanufactured unit from AutoZone--$190. 38 out the door. The unit has a lifetime warranty so if it is a piece of junk, I will be a frequent "repeat" customer to AutoZone. It was remanufactured in Taiwan.



I wish I could hold out for a rebuild here or try the new contact route but I have to get the truck moving. It is a shame that so many parts come from China or Mexico. Cummins replacement parts often come from China now. The lifetime warranty is what tilted me to the unit.



I am now going after the following problems: 1) I lost 4-Wheel Drive about 3 weeks ago and have found a thread that may fix the problem--vacuum line to front axle sensor. 2) I am getting weak fuel pressure readings at WOT--7 psi. I am looking at the direct replacement FASS unit. (The Carter unit has never been particularly strong. 3) An oil leak around the power steering pump or vacuum pump--many good threads and support on this item. I am thinking of getting the kit from the online supplier with the DVD instructions. 4) New rear breaks rebuilt. 5) New front seat for the driver--sinking a little too low after nearly 13 years.



Thank you again for your assistance in the diagnosis of the problem.



Mark Young



Moderator: You can move this thread away from the 911 post.