ETH and the Pro-Pain Blown Head Gasket Syndrome.

[Diesel Freak]

I have heard of blow head gaskets on the ETH when running C3H8. I have some questions.

What system are you using?

What were the circumstances when the gasket blew?

What was your max boost?

What was your C3H8 enhanced power?

What was your max EGT?

How much C3H8 were you feeding the engine... . either CFM or PSI?

What were your other fueling BOMBs?

Last question is... ... What is the max cylinder pressure the gasket chan hold?

-Cliff

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2001 ETH-DEE, Diablo Power Puck, Bosch 275's, Practical Solutions Boost Module and Elbow, LFT Silencer Ring Eliminator, K&N, Straight Piped http://www.mudrunner.sites.cc

[This message has been edited by cdaledh (edited 05-21-2001). ]

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

I have heard of blow head gaskets on the ETH when running C3H8. I have some questions.
What system are you using?
powershot 2000
What were the circumstances when the gasket blew?
i was cruising at 55 mph down the highway with no propane.
What was your max boost?
32psi
What was your C3H8 enhanced power?
100hp
What was your max EGT?
never over 1400
How much C3H8 were you feeding the engine... . either CFM or PSI?
30psi
What were your other fueling BOMBs?
dd2's and ez
Last question is... ... What is the max cylinder pressure the gasket chan hold?
i have no idea.
i like the powershot system and i'm still using it every once in a while. i'm trying to get my propane down to 40-50hp and that may help with the gasket problem. if it happens again i may get a custom copper gasket for it.

jim


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if it ain't broke fix it till it is!!
2001 eth, ez box, dd2's,southbendclutch

My Ram Pics

 

[Bart Timothy]

With vaccumm systems such as the one which HVAC sells, it's extremely easy to adjust the final flow of propane and thus the final power output of the engine.

The compression ratio of the ETH is simply too high to consider propane as a reliable power option for it. In every case of a blown head gasket which I personally heard of, the truck was never under full power when the gasket finally let go. Boxes and injectors compound the problem. DD has seen "over 20" head gasket failures due to propane.

According to DD there are no haed gasket replacement options for the 24v.

Run propane on an ETH at your own risk and learn the hard way like several others before that it isn't worth it.

 

[My 6 Eats V8's Old File]

how come they cant use the . 010 or the . 020(lowers compression 1. 42:1) thicker head gaskets?

 

[DieselB59]

Adam,
The thicker head gasket does help seal the cylinders for a little bit longer, but it also puts the injection nozzle tip further from the bowl of the piston and slightly affects proper combustion and adds to carboning the tops of the pistons, which raises compression little by little over time. How much time? For me it was just about 30K miles. Warped the head too. Next time that baby comes off, it'll be on a stand getting the same teflon coated low compression pistons that the racer has in it and I'll use a stock head gasket for it so that the nozzle will be injecting into the bowl.

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Chris Timochko
*Association of Diesel Specialists Certified*
AUTO WURKS DIESEL R&D TEAM
1997 5sp 4X4, Rhino Linings, Espar Heater, A. W. D. HX40 turbo, ATS 3pc Manifold, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, A. W. D. Custom Tuned Injection Pump, A. W. D. Intercooler, A. W. D. /Mallory Fuel System and Braided Stainless Lines, A. W. D. 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, NOS Diesel Kit, A. W. D. 6" Chrome Exhaust System, BD No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. 15. 50@97mph on Goodyear All-Terrain tires. Dynoed at Ida's: 435 hp at the rear wheels.
****************************************************************************
Project U96 - 1996 3500 2WD racer. A. W. D. Marine Ultra Low Compression, A. W. D. Teflon-coated Pistons, A. W. D. High Lift Camshaft, Ported and Honed Cylinder Head, Intake and Exhaust manifold; A. W. D. HX40 Turbocharger, ATS 3pc Exhaust Manifold, A. W. D. Water Mist Injection, A. W. D. Custom Fabricated Fuel System, Race Spec A. W. D. /BD P7100 Injection Pump, A. W. D. Custom High Flow Fuel Injection Nozzles, BD Auto transmission and Custom TC, Weld Draglites, Goodyear Eagle Drag Slicks, 5" Single Stack Through The Bed, Mag-Hytec on Rear and Transmission. 11. 54@115mph

 

[MATT MAN]

Chris, do you have propane or did it happen to you without it?

 

[HVAC]

I am under the impression the washer for the injector can be replaced with a thinner one, thus providing the proper injector spray pattern with a thicker head gasket.

[This message has been edited by HVAC (edited 05-23-2001). ]

 

[DieselB59]

The 215 hp trucks came from the factory with the thinnest washers available, so that's not an option. I blew a gasket without using any extra fueling enhancements other than #2 Diesel and a hot P7100

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Chris Timochko
*Association of Diesel Specialists Certified*
AUTO WURKS DIESEL R&D TEAM
1997 5sp 4X4, Rhino Linings, Espar Heater, A. W. D. HX40 turbo, ATS 3pc Manifold, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, A. W. D. Custom Tuned Injection Pump, A. W. D. Intercooler, A. W. D. /Mallory Fuel System and Braided Stainless Lines, A. W. D. 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, NOS Diesel Kit, A. W. D. 6" Chrome Exhaust System, BD No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. 15. 50@97mph on Goodyear All-Terrain tires. Dynoed at Ida's: 435 hp at the rear wheels.
****************************************************************************
Project U96 - 1996 3500 2WD racer. A. W. D. Marine Ultra Low Compression, A. W. D. Teflon-coated Pistons, A. W. D. High Lift Camshaft, Ported and Honed Cylinder Head, Intake and Exhaust manifold; A. W. D. HX40 Turbocharger, ATS 3pc Exhaust Manifold, A. W. D. Water Mist Injection, A. W. D. Custom Fabricated Fuel System, Race Spec A. W. D. /BD P7100 Injection Pump, A. W. D. Custom High Flow Fuel Injection Nozzles, BD Auto transmission and Custom TC, Weld Draglites, Goodyear Eagle Drag Slicks, 5" Single Stack Through The Bed, Mag-Hytec on Rear and Transmission. 11. 54@115mph

 

[HVAC]

OK that's cool, but the ETH is rated at 245 not 215. Are we talkin' apples to apples?

 

[John]

If I remember correctly, the copper washers (gaskets) used for the 24v injectors are . 060" thick. Even if thinner copper washers aren't available, they could be easily made. HVAC is right, the thicker head gasket could be offset by thinner injector washers... to some degree, providing the same injector tip to piston relationship.

 

[DieselB59]

I'm not talking ISB here, just responding to the cylinder pressure that a B series engine will allow before puking the head gasket. On the older mechanical engines, you can only go so thin with the washers before you run out of space. The 370 nozzle spray pattern was designed to work with the HUGE bowl on the 370 B marine engine and that's another reason why my piston tops were so carboned up. Remember Nowell, I'm running a 1997 P7100 injected engine. That pump flows fuel like a firehose. Real easy to exceed cylinder pressure limits on just #2 Diesel, never mind nitrous or propane.

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Chris Timochko
*Association of Diesel Specialists Certified*
AUTO WURKS DIESEL R&D TEAM
1997 5sp 4X4, Rhino Linings, Espar Heater, A. W. D. HX40 turbo, ATS 3pc Manifold, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, A. W. D. Custom Tuned Injection Pump, A. W. D. Intercooler, A. W. D. /Mallory Fuel System and Braided Stainless Lines, A. W. D. 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, NOS Diesel Kit, A. W. D. 6" Chrome Exhaust System, BD No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. 15. 50@97mph on Goodyear All-Terrain tires. Dynoed at Ida's: 435 hp at the rear wheels.
****************************************************************************
Project U96 - 1996 3500 2WD racer. A. W. D. Marine Ultra Low Compression, A. W. D. Teflon-coated Pistons, A. W. D. High Lift Camshaft, Ported and Honed Cylinder Head, Intake and Exhaust manifold; A. W. D. HX40 Turbocharger, ATS 3pc Exhaust Manifold, A. W. D. Water Mist Injection, A. W. D. Custom Fabricated Fuel System, Race Spec A. W. D. /BD P7100 Injection Pump, A. W. D. Custom High Flow Fuel Injection Nozzles, BD Auto transmission and Custom TC, Weld Draglites, Goodyear Eagle Drag Slicks, 5" Single Stack Through The Bed, Mag-Hytec on Rear and Transmission. 11. 54@115mph

 

[ynot]

Copper or brass nozzle seals (carbon dam) are available in about every size known to man. I usually go to a Caterpillar dealer and use the "Dealer Similar Parts List" on the phish. Look at washer- copper- outside diameter- bore... and you'll find 1/4" nozzle seals in a vast array of thicknesses. . 010" deviation in nozzle depth would not have near the "carboning problem" as fire hose nozzles or driving habits. The difference between 15. 8 and 16. 3 pistons shouldn't have that great of an effect on cylinder pressures when you include such drastic contingents as 40, 50, or more psi boost. 15. 8's at 50psi will have alot more pressure than 16. 3's at 40psi etc... T

 

[My 6 Eats V8's Old File]

how exactly does the marine piston lower compression, lower rispin, combustion chamber, piston top or all of the above?
If you can "exceed" the cylinder pressure on #2 then why don't you blow head gaskets daily?

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96 4x4, 3. 54 posi, 6. 5"lift, 35" bfg m/t's and 35x14. 5x16. 5 boggers,dual stabalizers, aluminium wheels, sport headlights,billet grill, K/N 0880, NOS, Performance Diesel LPG, BD Pulling/Competition fuel injection pump,370hp marine injectors, ported head, Hx40 w/ 16cm2, 4" exhaust w/ 2 chamber Flomaster, BD copetition auto transmission and torque converter, Kenwood sterio System, Westach 60lb boost/ egt guage with warning light,aluminium bed rail covers,chrome diff covers, 5 foot traction bars,
475hp and 1050lb of torque on #2
530hp and 1140 with bullydog lpg maxed(only 55hp)
590hp and 1200 with lpg and nos
all done in 5th gear with 35's.
have a great day.
Adam

 

[HVAC]

To Recap:

Topic = ETH Headgaskets/Propane

Adam sez: Why can't the ETH guy use the thicker head gasket?

5. 9 sez: Can't do it, changes injector pattern.

HVAC sez: Injector height is corrected via washer thickness.

5. 9 sez: 215's come with the thinnest washer. Washers aren't an option.

HVAC sez: ETH is rated 245 hp, what are you talkin' 'bout?

5. 9 sez: 370's are designed to... . HUH! Your comparing a 215 12v motor which has a considerably different head then the 24v engine. This is kinda confusing for those reading the thread don't you think? C'mon!
---------------------------------------------
Nowel/Performance Diesel

 

[Bart Timothy]

At MM I talked to Lawrence of DD in depth about propane, the ETH, and blown head gaskets. He showed me several places where he's seen gasket failures on an actual head sitting on his bench ready to be ported. In a nutshell his advice is to stay away from propane on the ETH. I asked about a thicker head gasket to reduce compression and his reply was there isn't one avialabe for the 24v but perhaps a 12v gasket could be modified to work.

 

[DieselB59]

First of all, I forgot, I am a moron. I don't know anything about these engines.

Secondly, I was responding in general to the post questioning the cylinder pressure that a B series engine can withstand. Whether it be ISB or 12 valve is inconsequential.

Third, head gaskets allow the head to walk around on the block. Under boost, it happens a lot more than in a naturally aspirated engine. If the head is moving excessively, E. G. nitrous, high boost, propane, the gasket will let go at a given moment. Usually at the worst time for you. And maybe when not under power at all. It doesn't matter if there is a 12 valve or 24 valve head on it, put enough power adders into either engine and the head gasket will be on borrowed time.

Fourth, the marine piston lowers compression via a huge combustion bowl. The rods are the same.


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Chris Timochko
*Association of Diesel Specialists Certified*
AUTO WURKS DIESEL R&D TEAM
1997 5sp 4X4, Rhino Linings, Espar Heater, A. W. D. HX40 turbo, ATS 3pc Manifold, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, A. W. D. Custom Tuned Injection Pump, A. W. D. Intercooler, A. W. D. /Mallory Fuel System and Braided Stainless Lines, A. W. D. 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, NOS Diesel Kit, A. W. D. 6" Chrome Exhaust System, BD No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. 15. 50@97mph on Goodyear All-Terrain tires. Dynoed at Ida's: 435 hp at the rear wheels.
****************************************************************************
Project U96 - 1996 3500 2WD racer. A. W. D. Marine Ultra Low Compression, A. W. D. Teflon-coated Pistons, A. W. D. High Lift Camshaft, Ported and Honed Cylinder Head, Intake and Exhaust manifold; A. W. D. HX40 Turbocharger, ATS 3pc Exhaust Manifold, A. W. D. Water Mist Injection, A. W. D. Custom Fabricated Fuel System, Race Spec A. W. D. /BD P7100 Injection Pump, A. W. D. Custom High Flow Fuel Injection Nozzles, BD Auto transmission and Custom TC, Weld Draglites, Goodyear Eagle Drag Slicks, 5" Single Stack Through The Bed, Mag-Hytec on Rear and Transmission. 11. 54@115mph

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"the gasket will let go at a given moment. Usually at the worst time for you. And maybe when not under power at all. "

Now THAT part I have a problem with...

WHY would a head gasket NOT fail at a time when it's seeing high cylinder pressure and stress at FULL output, only to let go while gently cruising down the boulevard with relatively LIGHT load? Since this thread is specifically directed at propane use, could the above somehow relate to propane system types that apply LARGE percentages of propane even at low speeds and turbo boost pressures, delivering an inbalanced ratio of propane vs diesel fuel when lightly loaded?

Or are these merely random failures where the actual gasket damage has already occured at some earlier point when it WAS stressed, only to do its final failure at a seemingly low stress point?

Is there a common denominator in gasket failures under propane injection, perhaps more related to one brand system or type = liquid vs vapor for instance? Do these failures more commonly occur to heavily modded engines under agggressive use and high volumes of injection that put them typically closer to the ragged edge of component tolerances, or is this a somewhat random result that has happened even on lighter applications and loads? I'm thinking along the lines of a liquid system set for high performance levels of injection that will trigger and deliver their full flow of propane at relatively low boost levels and loads...

Is there enough data available to provide general guidlines as to brands, adjustment, application or liquid vs vapor? I think we all realize that ANY time additional stress is placed upon an engine to increase output, reliability is threatened proportionately - but if what is being discussed HERE is something similar to "Russian Roulette", where users frequently experience RANDOM failures with no observable direct relation to applied stress vs failure, THAT'S a problem!

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... 108,000 trouble-free miles... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... Power Shot 2000 propane system... Mag-Hytec double deep A/T transmission pan...

MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 05-27-2001). ]

 

[ynot]

From what I've seen, most head gasket failures are random and not relative to an actual hi pressure situation at the time of failure. Fire ring fails (starts to give and "walks") under extreme load. Normal operation accompanied by random bursts after that force cylinder pressure across to an apposing cylinder, water jacket, or outside. It's generally not the gasket itself failing, but the etching in the head or block (non-linered) from the walking gasket "grinding" on the fire ring. Graphite head gaskets hold up in this scenario much better than McCord type of smooth gasket that some companies (Cummins) try to stay with. A better head bolt set-up (G10, larger size, or torque/ turn style [may already be, I don't know]) is a good start to a clamping fix also, but stainless/ graphite gaskets are what almost everyone else has gone to. Much easier on metal fatigue also... T

 

[DieselB59]

At the onset of head gasket failure, what usually happens is you'll notice that some coolant is being used between oil changes. Immediately after a full throttle run, there will be combustion, which walked past the fire ring via etching/warping of the block or head, that bubbles up through your coolant bottle. You may not notice this for a while, unless you look under the hood habitually. Eventually, the gasket becomes eaten away and corroded from the excess swappping of coolant and combustion gases, and you're calmly motoring down the avenue and oops--Why am I overheating? This does not relate only to propane, but instead to running in excess of 400 hp.

------------------
Chris Timochko
*Association of Diesel Specialists Certified*
AUTO WURKS DIESEL R&D TEAM
1997 5sp 4X4, Rhino Linings, Espar Heater, A. W. D. HX40 turbo, ATS 3pc Manifold, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, A. W. D. Custom Tuned Injection Pump, A. W. D. Intercooler, A. W. D. /Mallory Fuel System and Braided Stainless Lines, A. W. D. 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, NOS Diesel Kit, A. W. D. 6" Chrome Exhaust System, BD No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. 15. 50@97mph on Goodyear All-Terrain tires. Dynoed at Ida's: 435 hp at the rear wheels.
****************************************************************************
Project U96 - 1996 3500 2WD racer. A. W. D. Marine Ultra Low Compression, A. W. D. Teflon-coated Pistons, A. W. D. High Lift Camshaft, Ported and Honed Cylinder Head, Intake and Exhaust manifold; A. W. D. HX40 Turbocharger, ATS 3pc Exhaust Manifold, A. W. D. Water Mist Injection, A. W. D. Custom Fabricated Fuel System, Race Spec A. W. D. /BD P7100 Injection Pump, A. W. D. Custom High Flow Fuel Injection Nozzles, BD Auto transmission and Custom TC, Weld Draglites, Goodyear Eagle Drag Slicks, 5" Single Stack Through The Bed, Mag-Hytec on Rear and Transmission. 11. 54@115mph