Excessive Idle Time and a PO'ed Customer

[River-Runner]

Hi Folks,



I've got a 2008 2500 with 10,000 miles that has been "making oil" between oil changes. I got my oil changed at the dealer again today. I had the oil changed today, 3,936 miles since the last change, and the oil level had increased to about 1/2 inch above the plastic onto the steel cable of the dip stick.



I've talked to the dealer three times now about the oil creation issue. I got nowhere the first two times and this time he brings out this print out from the Star Center. The printout says I'm to blame as I have excessive idle. The dealer said I had 77. 836 total hours of operation and 21. 037 hours of idle, thus 56. 799 hours of NON-Idle Operation Time - yielding 27% of the operation hours at idle. At the dealer, I told him his star system had a problem as I have been listening to the guys having problems on the TDR from excessive idle with their DPF - and I just don't idle this bad boy at all. I estimate on the 10,000 total miles, at least 9,500 are pure highway miles with effectively no idle time.



The dealer said I must be wrong, as the Star System said I had 27% idle time of total operation and he says the Star System is always correct. HERE IS THE KICKER - If I have 10,060 miles and 56. 799 hours of Non-idle operation - this means I have averaged 177 MPH over the life of the truck!!!!!#@$%!



The only answer the dealer has for the "oil creation" issue is to remove the High Idle programming... ... he thinks that is the problem.



Does anybody have the "oil creation" issue and have you found a solution?

Is there possibly a computer problem given I have been found to average 177 MPH since I bought this truck!



This truck runs great, gets great fuel mileage and I have only had 1 P2000 code to date. I just can't believe that this level of oil dilution is good for the motor long term.



River-Runner

 

[Coalsmoke]

Yes I have that problem, today I drained 25% more oil or fluid than what I put in last time I changed the oil. I am now convinced that dealerships are worthless and mostly dishonest. I sent off an oil sample today, so I will let everyone know in 2-4 days when the results are in. I would put money down that whatever is diluting my oil is not going to be good for the bearings and I plan to figure something out.

 

[EArp]

I wonder if you might have gotten some fuel in the oil??

 

[jelag]

What I suggest that you do... is go back to the dealer with the numbers worked out and show him how the average MPH would have to be the 177 you quoted. . and ask him how they figure that out... . once he understands that. . maybe he'll come off his high horse on the idle issue. .

 

[River-Runner]

I wonder if you might have gotten some fuel in the oil??

That is the $64 question - but how?

 

[River-Runner]

What I suggest that you do... is go back to the dealer with the numbers worked out and show him how the average MPH would have to be the 177 you quoted. . and ask him how they figure that out... . once he understands that. . maybe he'll come off his high horse on the idle issue. .

I'm really trying to work with the dealer, but they really got under my skin today telling me it was all my fault the crankcase was getting fuel dilution due to excessive idle. Really PO'd me, but I held back and didn't burn any bridges... ...



Dodge has used us as the test vehicles for their new emissions system. Don't know if I will ever be able to get by this fact to buy another Dodge. I just feel used and abused... ... ... ... ... ...

 

[grasmo]

Not sure but I believe the computer on the truck measures idle time as anytime the accelerator pedal is completely released, ..... now ... ... remember how cell phones charge you a whole minute for a call even if it was only for 10 seconds???? well I wonder if the truck computer is calibrated to count the same way..... that would be a possible explanation. And if you are like the rest of us I have started coasting down hills every chance I get. This emissions stuff is a bunch of B. S. .

 

[River-Runner]

Not sure but I believe the computer on the truck measures idle time as anytime the accelerator pedal is completely released, ..... now ... ... remember how cell phones charge you a whole minute for a call even if it was only for 10 seconds???? well I wonder if the truck computer is calibrated to count the same way..... that would be a possible explanation. And if you are like the rest of us I have started coasting down hills every chance I get. This emissions stuff is a bunch of B. S. .

Per the dealer's Star Printout; idle time is defined as zero vehicle speed and the throttle position is at risk.

 

[River-Runner]

Per the dealer's Star Printout; idle time is defined as zero vehicle speed and the throttle position is at risk.

Sorry, I meant to say throttle position is at rest.

 

[RVTRKN]

River-Runner: I thought I had the same issue with my C&C and had the oil changed and took a sample of it and had it analyzed, it came back perfect with a no need to change oil message. I've ignored it ever since and just make sure I change my oil every 3K miles and not the recommended interval. As far as your idle time is concerned, as long as you don't have issues with the DPF, don't worry about it. Here in the Socialist Republic Of California it can get very hot and I use the high idle feature to keep my cab cool or to cool it off before I get in it. Hope this will help you feel better about it.



FWIW, You have to remember your computer and Star do not drive it.

 

[AllianceDiesel]

High idle times will hurt a common rail motor, seen it many times, when you idle, it doesn't build up enough heat in the cylinders because there isn't a load on the engine. This drop in temp. causes the fuel not to completely burn. That un-burnt fuel is carbon, that carbon can get into the injector and stick the injector open or cause it to stick slightly. This in turn can cause either fuel in the oil or washing the cylinder walls down. Now on to the computer, there is a calculation that they used based on throttle position, rpms, engine load, and some other stuff. The percentages are broken down into tenths of a percent. I have played around with it a lot and I believe it it accurate (this was on the drb system, didn't really do it on the star scan because I think I had only one vehicle with a problem). Im not gonna disagree with your numbers or what not because sometimes I would come up with different numbers than star. If you could get a copy of that sheet and put it on here it would help a lot.

 

[RVTRKN]

mopartech, what do you concider high idle, that can cause the wear your pic shows? What about the high idle function and what RPM would you recommend when using it? Why would D/C give us this option if it will hurt the engine?

 

[Coalsmoke]

RVT, when mopar tech said high idles times I read it as long periods of idle, not high idle as in high idle that you and I think of where the RPM is increased. Generally speaking, idling issues are in regards to too cool of a combustion chamber (cylinder) temperature. As a rule of thumb I never let my EGT be below 300*F when idling. When a cylinder's temp is not hot enough you get wash-down on the walls where the diesel dilutes and displaces the lubricating oil film on the cylinder wall. It has been my experience with my 08 that using the high idle feature is necessary to keep temps up. The reason the newer trucks are at a higher risk for wash-down as compared to the 12valves is that with multiple injection points happening, you already have fuel being introduced to the cylinder at cooler combustion points.

 

[AllianceDiesel]

sorry, i need to stop using tech terms, in the dealership you call it high idle times, i see what your saying, yes the high idle feature is a life saver anything that will kick up the rpms to over 1000-1200 is perfect (somebody tell me what the high idle kicks on to with the cruise control feature and tell me what you can max out at with the acc. button on the steering wheel) its been a long time since I have used the high idle feature.



Anything over 20% is considered high idle times. If I remember right, this truck had 25-30% idle times, I know one of the trucks with the same problem had 35%, that was a Ted Turner ranch truck that would just sit all day and idle. We would clear the idle times and percentages everything the truck would come in and it would be at 30% or more everytime.

 

[RVTRKN]

sorry, i need to stop using tech terms, in the dealership you call it high idle times, i see what your saying, yes the high idle feature is a life saver anything that will kick up the rpms to over 1000-1200 is perfect (somebody tell me what the high idle kicks on to with the cruise control feature and tell me what you can max out at with the acc. button on the steering wheel) its been a long time since I have used the high idle feature.



Anything over 20% is considered high idle times. If I remember right, this truck had 25-30% idle times, I know one of the trucks with the same problem had 35%, that was a Ted Turner ranch truck that would just sit all day and idle. We would clear the idle times and percentages everything the truck would come in and it would be at 30% or more everytime.

Gee I don't know what the Max is, I like 1200 RPM but when its really hot I go up to 1400-1500 RPM. When you engage it, it starts out at 900 RPM, I'm too afraid to max it.

 

[cj hall]

hello to all



the fast idle is for keeping the engine hot this needs to be done on the 04. 5 to 08 trucks. the reason is the third event in the fueling system this event cools the combustion chamber and fuels the cat this is why after 10 min of idle time the temp gage in the truck is cold. all of this in the name of better emishions



the big problem is idle at 800 rpm head is cold and you wash the walls scoring them and then the engine is toast.



my 04 has a load of idle time on it winter time for heat summer time for cooling , smarty fast idle



my 05 gets the same but it has the fast idle set up and I have never had a problem with either yes it has a smarty also.



if there is fuel in the oil its the start of an injector going bad the amount of fuel at an idle would take years to fill up the crank case take it to another dealer that will work with you. have them check the flow of fuel thru the injectors you will find the bad one fast.



star says #@$%! #@$%! #@$%! #@$%! give me a break

 

[Mishkaya]

River-Runner

I don't have a newer truck thank goodness, but this topic has come up before and I recall someone doing some research into the matter only to find out that before he purchased his truck it had been idled extensively. I don't recall how he was able to find this out, but he did and was able to prove it, thus was able to get his issue resolved. He was more than just a little PO'ed as well as I recall.

Good luck.

mishkaya

 

[River-Runner]

High idle times will hurt a common rail motor, seen it many times, when you idle, it doesn't build up enough heat in the cylinders because there isn't a load on the engine. This drop in temp. causes the fuel not to completely burn. That un-burnt fuel is carbon, that carbon can get into the injector and stick the injector open or cause it to stick slightly. This in turn can cause either fuel in the oil or washing the cylinder walls down. Now on to the computer, there is a calculation that they used based on throttle position, rpms, engine load, and some other stuff. The percentages are broken down into tenths of a percent. I have played around with it a lot and I believe it it accurate (this was on the drb system, didn't really do it on the star scan because I think I had only one vehicle with a problem). Im not gonna disagree with your numbers or what not because sometimes I would come up with different numbers than star. If you could get a copy of that sheet and put it on here it would help a lot.

MoParTech:



I've read what you are saying before regarding slow idle on the 6. 7 - and I have taken this issue to heart while owning this truck. I just don't let it idle at all - maybe 1-2 minutes on real cold start up, but I then use the high idle feature.



I've got to take issue with the computer's numbers on my idle time. This is a truck I use almost exclusively for highway trips, I take a small car for in town trips.



So if I'm not idling the motor, what else could cause the fuel to get into the crankcase???? The dealer wanted my truck for two or three days to work with engineering to figure this out, but they don't have any ideas on their own.



River Runner

 

[snidley1]

My Truck is going to the dealer thursday for the oil level being up on the cable for the third time This will also be the third dealer to look at this#@$%!Im going to try to get them to enable the high Idle feature. I have 900 miles on this oil change and the oil is already up on the cable. It seems like I would have needed to let it idle for hours to get that much fuel in crankcase In 900 miles. For some reason I fill like it's going to go like usual when I take it in though :-{}#@$%!

 

[MVernier]

m vernier

IHAVE 07. 5 14500 MAKEING OIL TOOK

TO DEALER CP3 PUMP BAD GOT IT BACK

WE WILL SEE IF IT IS FIXS