Experienced Towers Advice

[Georgia Cracker]

I am towing a 4500# gooseneck loaded with a 10,000# All Terrain Skid Steer (ASV RC-100) with a 2000# Timber Ax attached. Thats about 17,000# worth of weight.



I have a 555/305, 2004 2500 HO with a TST PowermaxCR and a Suncoast Triple Loc Converter with a Fairbanks Valve Body. Stock exhaust, etc.



I am running B. F. Goodrich All Terrain T/As, 285/70/17s with 65#s of air all around. It sits almost level when loaded properly.



This is a heavy load for me. I have been towing a 7000# tractor. With the PWRMaxCR set on 3, this boy starts out slow. With the triple loc, it shifts extremely hard (rocks the truck), but EGTs stay under 1200 even on hills at 65-70.



It all seems to be stable; some bouncing, but moderate.



Wanted to check with experienced heavy haulers for any advice/observations that I might have to learn the hardway.



Anyone out there towing a similar setup? Any problems I cant forsee?

 

[John - K5AWO]

IMO that is a pretty heavy jag for a 3/4 ton pickup. Have you measured the truck loaded to determine the tonque weight?



Were it me, I would be getting a dually for safety's sake if nothing else.



You don't mention anything about a jake brake. That will pay dividends in brake rotors that won't get warped. You already have the TC lock so the jake brake will work fine.

 

[klenger]

You need to take a trip to the scales with your trailer hooked up. Is your truck a 2WD or 4WD? LWB or SWB? Quad cab or reg cab? 4WD reduces the cargo rating (not tow rating) buy almost 500 lbs. If your tonge weight is 15% of the trailer weght, you have 2500 lbs on the truck.



The document at http://www.klenger.net/dodge/3rd-gen-reference/2004-ram-towing.pdf shows the ratings for the 2004 turcks. Assuming that you have a 4WD quad cab LWB, your load rating is (pin weight + truck passengers + cargo) is 1890 lbs. For a 2WD it's 2420 lbs. The max trailer weight is 12,750 and 13,250 respectivly. You are busting you tow rating by about 4000 lbs and over the trucks GVWR by anwhere from 200 - 800 lbs.



Read the page at http://www.klenger.net/arctic-fox/weight/index.html for info on towing and weight ratings.



Are you towing this combo a lot, or is it a rare occasion?

 

[bulabula]

Sounds like the ole girl would be bulging at the seams. I won't even talk about the 2500's GVWR, and you're probably over Dodge's rear axle rating but not close to AAM's ratings.



I'd make sure you don't exceed the weight ratings of the rear tires with that load. That load would probably overload my stock tires - figuring a 20% pin weight of 3400 lbs.



Be careful and make sure the trailer brakes work.

 

[Duluth Diesel]

While duallys would advisable for a load that heavy, one way to gain a margin of safety with a 2500 is to replace the wheels and tires with a set of 19. 5" rims and G-rated tires. Costly, but could save your butt some serious problems.

 

[DPelletier]

I wouldn't tow that without a 3500 dually (at least on a semi-regular basis). Like Ken said, weight it. I was under the impression that goosenecks (like fifth wheels) usually have 20 - 25% of thier GVW as tongue weight, so at 17,000 that would be 3,400 - 4250 lbs. If yours is anywhere near these figures, you may be up to 2,250 lbs over your 2500's GVWR rating. Now, I'm not going to get in a huge argument on whether you should be driving around over GVWR or not, but this is too much over for me.

If you do keep on hauling it, the 19. 5"s would give me some comfort level, but at the very least, I'd ditch the load range D tires and go back to the stock load range E's. Don't just look at the load capacity of the tire, simple fact is that they'll run alot hotter at 65psi than they will at 80psi.



Good luck



Dave



ps. FWIW my GVW (loaded) is 12,000 - 12,300.

 

[Georgia Cracker]

I see a lot of good advice here. Thank you all. Problem is, I bought the truck and have a lot invested in it so trading would be extremely expensive.



This is an occasional haul, say once or twice a week for max 50round trip. I understand from your responses that I am way over the rating of my truck. To compensate, I will drive cautiously and restrict myself to local trips where I know that I will not be hauling on hills and can drive slowly.



On the other hand, me and my partner may just need to bite the bullet and buy a used 3500 dually 2 WD to ensure safety.



Interestingly, the truck performs extremely well beyond its factory limits. The worst experience is loading, when the 12,500# skid steer is pulled up on the ramps - the truck bounces around a bit.



Thanks again for the good information.

 

[tgrfan2]

heavy towing

I wish I had your rig when I was grossing 32,500# with a 78 W150 440 automatic! Of course with that load I ran in low range at around 50mph max to the grain elevator twenty miles max. The big thing as you said was balancing the load. I added one leaf to the rear springs and usually had about 1500# pin weight. Trailer was a triaxle shop built with brakes on all axles so it stopped well. I only ran faster if I was grossing less than 20K. Had a friend with a new Chevy 350 4 speed that wanted to use the trailer some. He borrowed it to haul his JD 4430 with water filled duals to the shop. When the dealer had the tractor ready he was too "busy" to haul it back! You probably get better mileage too. I usually got 5. 5-6. 0mpg.

 

[MMiller]

I'm gonna be putting on my flame suit now .



If you look in my reader pics you will find my 32' goosneck(7000# empty) hooked to my 93(6500Lbs) with two full size 4X4 trucks on it both weighing 5500# at least(one CTD, one 440) also a set of one ton axels in the bed of the old truck. I do tow like this often in the summer. My truck got 10,000 miles on it in the last year, maybe 1,000 of it without the trailer hooked up. I have also hauled a 18,000# backhoe on this trailer a couple of times and some CAT skid steers. Yes I know I am over the trucks rating. Yes I know what can happen. I have a CDL in my pocket, have driven all kinds of semis, straight trucks, etc. Some have not handled their loads as well as my 3/4 ton handles the trailer. This truck has also pulled my dad's tandem axel dump trailer that will hold 300 bushels of corn, at around 55# bushel.



I keep good tires on the truck. I check tire pressure in the truck and trailer before I leave the yard. The brakes are adjusted and in proper working order all the time. I have had to replace the hitch on the truck once. The first one was not heavy enough and broke. . I also run down the interstate with trucks on the trailer at 72 mph, cruise on. I am more scared of the young guy with his jeep hooked to his boat, or suburbinite driving his expidition pulling his travel trailer. I have been hauling big loads since I was about 12 yrs old. No accendents. Just good sensible driving. Good maintence. Keep the loads balanced, too much on the truck rides terrible, too little is scary gets to bouncing pretty bad.



I won't tell you that your truck can't do. Here in the midwest we have been proving trucks can do more then drive you to the coffee shop. They are tools, to do work with, and like all tools, they need to be maintained.



Like I said the flame suit is on, fire away.



Michael

 

[KBalzuweit]

Watch the rear truck tires, make sure the trailer brakes work good and run it. If you look around on the road and see what even the dually guys are doing you are ok. I pulled a 40ft with a 92 reg cab loaded w/ just as much weight and had always watched my tires and barakes and had no problems. Just make sure when you load you get the pin weight correct. Thats the key to heavy haulin w/ a 3/4. Just be safe and drive smart.

 

[Georgia Cracker]

We are all much more safety conscious today than we have every been. Business and industry is spending a lot of money to keep people from getting hurt. Product liability for companies like DC is a big thing. They have to fully articulate all the possible risk to manage (reduce) claims against negligence.



So, I am sure that the guideline they outline are conservative and intend to demonstrate responsible behavior toward the consumer. As I stated, my truck handled well, even 4000# over its stated limits. It did not create a hazard for anyone else. The possibility of tire failure exists, but you seldom see that today because of the margin for error built into tire construction - mostly as a result of liability suits.



Traditionally, most of us have done what we needed to get by using the equipment we had at hand. Ideally, I would trade my truck in for a Ford 450 which is stout enough for pulling a 17,000# plus load more safely. The rating for a Dodge 3500 Dually is about the same as my 2500. The only advantage is stability. A 3500 2WD would offer that but still not meet the requirements for the load in terms of poundage.



One thing I think you need to do is chock the wheels when loading 13,000# on a 4,500# trailer to control the movement of the truck. Possible U-joint and transmission damage can occur with the sometimes violent movement of the truck during the loading process.



I have good trailer brakes. I will focus on correct load distribution to control for the pin weight and upgrade to an "E" rated tire as soon as I can.



I think we all have to keep in mind that we are living in a litigious world where we can be sued for negligence if it can be proved that we fail to adhere to relevant safety regulations. If I am over the limits and get involved in an accident, I can be sued and would probably lose if it could be demonstrated that the accident was related to a safety violation. That puts lots of us at risk. If you don't have any assets, then there is nothing they can take; if you have home equity, savings, etc. they could be at risk.



In the end, we do what we gotta do, but we need to keep our eye on the ball. Know the risks and the costs of risk.

 

[Kmac]

All of the above are a must, as I'm sure you are aware. I transport autos for a living with my stock 03 3500 (motor) pulling a 53ft 5th wheel trailer capable of hauling 4 midsize or 3 full size vehicles. I do so on a regular basis. I have over 100k on my truck now, at least 75K of that is loaded heavy. The addition of the Jake brake was a tremendous help, as was mentioned above. The addition of air bags on the rear was a tremendous help as well. The heavy pin weight will take it's toll on your suspension in time. The air bags do not change your GCVWR but will take some of the load off of your springs as well it makes for a much better ride. Most of all take your time, check equipment often, lots of defensive driving, more often than not it's the other guy that will get you in trouble, and tons of caution!! Be afriad, it will keep you alive! Just my . 02 worth... ..... Good luck

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"The air bags do not change your GCVWR but will take some of the load off of your springs as well it makes for a much better ride. Most of all take your time, check equipment often, lots of defensive driving, more often than not it's the other guy that will get you in trouble, and tons of caution!! Be afriad, it will keep you alive!"



Words of wisdom!



And I might add, not only will observance keep YOU alive, it may well keep others AROUND you (like ME!) alive as well!

 

[DPelletier]

I'm not going to preach to you on the dangers of running overloaded, but I did want to clarify one thing; I often hear how the 2500's are rated at the same GCWR as a 3500 dually. The difference is that with fifth wheel or gooseneck setups you usually are way over a 2500's GVWR before you get even close to the GCWR. The real difference between a dually and a 3/4 ton SRW is 12000 GVWR compared to 9000 lbs GVWR. When you take into account the truck weighs between 7,000 and 8,000 lbs, the payload difference is significant. Yes, I know many people run way over the GVWR and I also understand that even the dually would be over GCWR. If I were you I'd worry more about the pin weight than the total load (of course making sure the trailer brakes are in perfect working condition). I applaud your decision to go back to the E rated tires and I recognize that economics often force us into less than ideal situations.



Good luck

Dave

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I applaud your decision to go back to the E rated tires and I recognize that economics often force us into less than ideal situations. "



Dave, *I* dislike "preaching" or getting into confrontational discussions myself - but there ARE a few issues that espececially yank my chain!



Towing substantially overweight is one of them! (betca would have never guessed!)



And of ALL those I have problems understanding, those who hotshot or do LOTS of RV towing knowing full well they are overweight puzzle me the most. There ARE choices available for towing at various weight ranges that provide the capacity and safety to do so properly - why "cheap out", and buy LESS than what you really need, and are fully aware is not adequate - especially if it's also your livelihood?



It's ONE thing to stupidly OCASSIONALLY haul well over the capacity of your vehicle - and something else entirely to knowingly and deliberately do it on a DAILY basis!

 

[Kmac]

Gary,



I recognize you as being a major contributer to the TDR web site. I have personally benefited from your posts. I thank you sincerely for sharing your knowledge and experiences for all to share. Your point concerning GCVWR I can not argue nor want to. I am only responding to share how you made me feel. I have seen many posts before about the GCVWR. They speak for themselves. I'm not one to beat around the bush! I'm new to this web site and like all newcomers seek acceptance from the established and knowledgeable. No one likes to be made the fool especially the new guy! I responded to this post only trying to help and share with a fellow member that just may be able to benefit from from my experience. It felt good to maybe be on the helpful side of things than the one needing it. I don't know you & you don't know me, but in the short time you have seen fit to basically call me an entirely different thing than stupid, on a regular basis thus far. You may may not care but for what it's worth your response made me feel very unwelcome and foolish! Was that your intent? If so well done, if not then... ... ... for what it's worth. I will apologize to you in advance if I am out of line, as I may be! I mean you no ill, as I wouldn't judge you! I can't, I don't even know you.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Kmac - it is never my intent to demean or attack individuals - nor will I stand for them to do so with me... IF you see my opinions offered here or in other threads as a PERSONAL attack, you are extremely mistaken, but I will apologize to you just the same.



What I *WILL* often do is attack or challenge a viewpoint or opinion - someone elses or my own opinions might be totally in error - I know some of mine have been - but that hardly makes me or another foolish or stupid, even tho' sometimes their actions or opinions might be in the view of another.



Smart folks sometimes do stupid or ignorant things - dunno if I even come close to the "smart" part, but sure been involved in more than my share of the "stupid/ignorant" part!



Problem in this and other forums, is the failure or inability for some users/members to disassociate an OPINION from an individual, and respond accordingly - you may attack as many of my OPINIONS as you feel appropriate with your own countering info or opinion - but try to attack ME personally, and you'd better be prepared for conflict - see the difference?



It may seem a fine point of difference to some, but it is very real - there's lots of room for differences of OPINION, but in my book, no room for personal attack or ridicule - so if you feel my comments are intended to in any way demean you as a person, re-read it carefully, because my comments are rarely personal, but intended to address an ISSUE!



The impersonality of the written word too often allows a mistaken impressions of the intended meaning or attitude of the writer - I personally like to kid around and give guys a razzing at times - but NOT to anger or insult them - and many of them do the same with me, and that's part of the camraderie of this fine group.



Sometimes issue-related opinions are stronger than others - it depends on the issue - and I personally feel it extremely wrong to deliberately skirt regulations, ratings and issues of safety that might directly involve others - and to then suggest to others that it's no "big deal" if they follow your example.



In the case of overloading - one person might *occasionally* drive overloaded relatively slowly on little-traveled secondary or back roads reasonably safely in a well maintained vehicle - but when he then represents that as being OK and acceptable, his words might very well influence some rickety old codger like me to regularly do the same in a more poorly maintained vehicle at higher speeds and over heavily traveled freeways - get my point?



See you in other threads - you're among friends here, and I hope to be one of them.

 

[John - K5AWO]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

you're among friends here, and I hope to be one of them.

To all:



I, in the past, would do a lot of joking. Use the negative connotation when I really meant it in a positive way. This has back fired on me several times when I did it in the company of folks who did not understand the issues. This kind of thing is done all the time when all of the participants are "in the know".



You see it a lot on the race track scene. My brother was a NHRA participant and one time winner of the '77 Winston Nationals. I went with him a few times and you could hear a lot of remarks that were the reverse of good English. Ie, crankshaft just busted. "Well now, ain't that a fine thing to have happen?"



As Gary just said, printed material is not very good at passing on facial expressions. That is why there are icons available to help in that manner.



A small hint:

I try to write out what I am going to say and then either do a PreView for content, or, as I am doing now, write it in a Word Processor so that I can see "all of the message" on the screen. I then have the opportunity to "fine tune" what I am trying to say.



That little quickie editor at the bottom of the page will get us in trouble faster than anything else available. Type it out while your (my) brain is running in front of my (your) fingers, drop a word, miss-spell a word, and the meaning gets twisted.



Gary is a stickler for content and accuracy. :{ And IMO some of his writings have been a "bit too sharp". I read one of them this morning and thought to myself, "uh, Gary, wish you had worded that a little softer". But then, that is My Opinion and I am free to express as many of my opinions as I like. Sometimes they really come back and bite me in the hindquarters.



TDR, is IMO, one of the finest things to have happened to me. It has pulled me out of the doldrums and made my thinker start to work again. Without getting into anything personal, I have had some issues that really put me down in the past. Getting beyond them and returning to a world of reality has been a Godsend.



Thanks to all of you for being patient and helping us Newbies. And to all of us, try to watch what our little pinkies are doing with the keyboards. Let's reread it at least once.



I will.

 

[Georgia Cracker]

Just to put some closure to this thread. I bought a used F550 4WD Reg Cab to pull the 17,000#. Its a 2001 with 28,000 miles on it - 7. 3 diesel of course. I would rather have gotten a Cummin but no choices in this bracket.



Paid $28,000, tag, tax and title. My business partner and I should have done our homework on all this first but we were doing too many things at once.



Although I could still use my 2500 to do the job, this route provides a proper safety margin and is street legal.



One of the things I love about the Internet is being able to use forums like this to get experienced advise quickly and in quantity. You have to sort through personalities and biases, but this forum allows you to do that quickly and get better direction faster.



Thanks to all that responded.

 

[klenger]

Good decision.