EXPLAIN YOURSELF, Don M

[Sled Puller]

Do yourselves a favor and REALLY read these threads. Not just skipping over them, but READ them. They are not that long.









http://forums.ford-diesel.com/ubbth...=627507&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=2&fpart=



http://forums.ford-diesel.com/ubbth...=634925&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=

 

[Cooker]

What do you mean they are not that long. I hope that was scarcasm because they seemed pretty long to me.

 

[Scooby]

I don't understand this post... . for the love of all that is good, why are you asking Don M to explain himself again?!?!



Seriously though, I believe Don has done an excellent job of trying to state the facts of a particular brand of oil - alerting interested parties that this brand of oil has not gotten an API certification. Period. End of discussion. He isn't claiming it doesn't work - or that it is deficient in any way... . just that the company has elected not to seek API certification.



Or am I missing something?? (always possible )

 

[Briar Hopper]

Think about it a little harder, Scooby. Think some more. Isn't it clear now? Don M has an agenda, and that agenda is to use smear tactics against Amsoil whenever and wherever he can. It doesn't matter about the API certification. What really matters is his single-minded doggedness to cause Amsoil as much bad publicity as he can, and tweak the noses of Amsoil vendors on any forum.

Today it's Amsoil. Tomorrow it may well be another product.

His actions and words truly come across to me as someone who is not playing with a full deck.

I've talked to no less than 6 former members of the TDR in the past few days, plus two vendors who no longer bother to post in the TDR. That's right. Former members. All were disgusted at the opinion-fest and bashing board the TDR has degenerated in to, and let their membership lapse.

 

[pwr2tow]

Don M,

keep up the great work on keeping everyone informed. The TDR was built on such a platform, and for anyone to try and block these efforts are doing no one any good except themselves, or any company they are trying to represent.



I do have one question, How come the amsoil website says their oil is API rated, are they misleading the public, false advertiseing or did they just acquire API standards?



Not trying to flame anyone, We would just like to know what is, and what is not.



If it was not for the abundance of information I receive from this site I would not even bother logging in.



Ron

 

[Gray Ghost]

Doesn't appear to me that Don is bashing anyone. He just stated the facts. I thought the oil was API rated. I have toyed with the idea of switching, but can't justify the cost. I change every 5K. I think I will continue to run Shell. Been working fine for 110k and it is API rated. I really don't care to to take chances with claims. I want proof. Just my 2 cents.

 

[CharlieMiller]

Well we are all entitled to our opinions. Its just that some just keep on beating a dead horse. I personally stopped reading the oils threads especially the amsoil ones because of it. DonM has become somewhat of a celebrity because of it. Let dead dogs lay

 

[RustyJC]

As someone who "ain't got no dog in this fight", I didn't perceive Don's effort to inform regarding API certification as a vendetta against anyone. To be perfectly honest, I was bothered more by the "piling on" by the Amsoilers in response to anything being said by anyone that is perceived to have a negative connotation regarding Amsoil.



I'm still in the break-in process with Delo 400, but my knee-jerk reaction as of this 5 minutes is to look long and hard at Delvac 1 if/when I switch to synthetic engine oil.



Rusty

 

[Riflesmith]

Innocent he aint.

DonM certainly has an unquestioned right to make his point. This I support. But he most certainly did more than point out a lack of API certification.



He treated those of us who use Amosil as if we were idiots in need of his counsel. He has preached incessantly against extended drain intervals, calling oil analysis "junk science", telling us that oil filtration is bad because it "skews oil analysis results" and "hides engine wear".



These are the reasons the users of Amsoil "piled on". It has nothing to do with Amsoil dealers defending the Amsoil company from Don. He presented his OPINIONS and tried to sell them as FACTS. Calling the Cummins engine company and asking them to buy into extended drains supported by oil analysis? What answer could anyone expect them to give?



Engine and automobile companies will never buy into extended drains for one simple reason. They believe the average consumer is not interested enough in doing their own careful maintenance to be trusted to handle extended drains properly. I believe they are correct. But there are a number of people(like alot of the people on this site) that take great interest in their vehicles and can handle extended drains properly.



Those of us that believe in extended drains using high quality synthetics will always react when we are told we are stupid. Any reasonable person reacts when this happens. We have as much right to speak out on this subject as DonM does.

 

[SlyBones]

Re: Innocent he aint.

Originally posted by Riflesmith

Engine and automobile companies will never buy into extended drains for one simple reason. They believe the average consumer is not interested enough in doing their own careful maintenance to be trusted to handle extended drains properly. I believe they are correct. But there are a number of people(like alot of the people on this site) that take great interest in their vehicles and can handle extended drains properly.

Actually I think they do support extended intervals, just not in our market. I think that is because of money. The economic impact to the people who make oil, filters, distributors, and places like Jiffy Lube, would be significant if all of a sudden ever car around the world started using 50K drain intervals. Even 15K or anything like that. They want the vast majority of all passenger vehicles doing the 3K thing.



In other markets, its acceptable practice. The vehicles are even designed for it to some degree by using higher sump capacities and stuff like that. Generally these markets are much smaller and the economic impact is less. Also has broader reaching effect. The trucking industry would only pass on the increased costs of maintenance and raise overall consumer prices.

 

[Don M]

Slybones is correct about pan capacity. The Cummis is a spendy little dude for most folks to have to replace. There are so many factors involved when a manufacturers decides to set a drain interval. Contamination is one of them. A very small amount of water or glycol from a leaking gasket or seal can really lower the TBN of an oil in very short time period. Extremly fast. Once the TBN is lowered from the water or glycol the troubles begin. Wear rates can go through the roof. Guys that sample the oil on an extended drain interval can leave this potential trouble doing its dirty work much longer than the guys who just drain at a shorter interval. Most people will never have this problem of water or glycol contamination, but the guys who do and wait too long can have a serious amount of damage done in a short time. Guys who drain quicker can mitigate the damage to lesser amounts.

Imagine going 20K betweeen oil changes and have a seal leak start leaking oil into an engine at 5k. 15k worth of driving around with varying degrees of contamination and the owner never knew about it. The stakes are high for some guys. Engine replacement is too expensive for some guys that dont have the resources to pay for it.



The manufacturer is not setting drain intervals for just the reasons others have stated. There are other reasons that just begin with water/glycol contam. In Europe the cars (gassers) are going to 10k intervals now and the diesel is still at 6k.

The 3k drain cycle is no longer the average interval for passenger cars either. Jiffy lube and such has no bearing at all on how the drain cycles are calculated. Period.



Briar,



Why do you come on every single thread I have posted on about oil and say the things you do? You have called me all kinds of things. Told others at Ford-Diesel I was an "irritating arguementative clown", "single minded", warned other vendors I would or could soon attack them or their products/services and be careful when dealing with me. You called me "malicious in nature" as well. I can tell you now I am begining to tire of your cut-downs and slander. Please discontinue them. Post me some facts about the topics in support of your product. Show me some oil testing, that to this point, you have never done. I have ignored your cut-downs for the last few weeks and now I feel you should cease them.



ronsram1999,



The oil labeling is in compliance with the law. Amsoil is breaking no rules or laws in their tricky labeling schemes. They know the oil is not API licensed, but the freely use the API terminology to make people think it is. "meets API specs" is an opinion from Amsoil and they do not test the oil to back up this claim. Nor does Amsoil pay the fees or submit their product for testing to the API. I have a letter from Amsoil stating they do not test their oils for compliance to the API standards. They state they consult with the additive manufacturers they buy additives from to blend an oil to met the specs and dont need to go throught the testing because of this consultation. Yeah right. I guess my eye doctor should just call himself licensed or he meets the specs to perform eye surgery on me. No thanks.



Sled Puller,



I did not start either of the threads on the ford-diesel website. I actually go on the website because we own a Ford truck for our company. I was not the originator of the threads. One thread started or was titled the "Amsoil was API certified" "it said it right on the bottle" Well the Amsoil oil was not API certified or licensed at all and I explained to him the tricky labeling scheme the bottle had and that I fell for the labeling myself. The guy is an Amsoil dealer as well and handled the banter in a professional manner. He was polite and we had a debate without attacks, name calling, doubting, or cut-downs. After the topics began to contain emotion I quickly removed myself from the thread until things settled a bit.





Riflesmith,



Engine manufacturers have many more reasons to not buy into extended drains than the "one" you stated. There are a multitude of them to not extend drain cycles in our engines. An oil tribologist and engineers in my field have have concured with me that by-pass filters can hide oil analysis results.

Finally, mostly Amsoil salesmen are the ones whom "pile on". I get more e-mails and PM's from guys who do not like the product or who support my position daily. I just received another two in as many days and one from a fella and he was at the 400,000 mile mark with his truck on Rotella. I will leave his a name in good faith unless he decides to respond personally. I can name off 12 people in the last few days since the poll I started who did not respond because they are not wanting to rub any one the wrong way. Im not alone in my thinking or support. I still have yet to see a high miler award given to extrended drain trucks using Amsoil on the TDR. Not even one yet with 300k or more.



As I stated earlier Amsoil does not run expensive tests like the API requires on their oils. Amsoils position is that they do not need to because they consulted with the additive manufacturer.

I have sent all kinds of Amsoil products out to be broken down or analyzed to pieces to see exactly what they contain. What base stocks and additive packages they have in them and other stuff they contain. I have been told they used "bright 150" in the past. I do not know if they do nowadays. We will see.



Don~

 

[fj40charles]

I believe Amsoil is a good product. However, it it is not API certified, then you could not stand up to DC if your engine warranty if voided out. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect Don's comments as well as others about this hot topic. Read and decide for yourselves what oil you want to run, but don't come crying if DC does not honor the warranty should something catastrophic happen to the motor. Remember the 1 million mile truck in the TDR some issues ago? All the owner did was change Rotella T every 5K miles.



Charles

 

[rrausch]

I waded through those posts. (Ugh... nasty stuff!!)

Keep up the good work Don M. I for one, appreciate all Don has gone through just to make people aware of API facts. I didn't know that. From what I can see most of the folks who are bashing Don M are Multi-Level Amsoil salesmen.



It is humorous to me that the more they bash him with emotional attacks on his character, his motives etc. , the more he just repeats the facts he has uncovered... and this upsets them even more!



But that is the GREAT thing about this board. We are open to discovery here. Even if somebody's Ox gets gored.

Me included... I LIKE my K&N filter!



For the record I did have Amsoil in my trans and drained it at the recommended interval and replaced it non-Amsoil. I also have Amsoil in my rear end and at the recommended interval I will drain it too. Extended drain intervals are too risky IMHO.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Go, Don GOOooo!



As far as *I* am concerned, Don has conducted himself, and maintained the tone and character of his posts in a VERY upstanding, honest and courteous manner!



Can't say the same for some of his critics!



Don sez Amsoil is NOT API certified - IS it?



NO!



Don sez bypass or other aggressive filtering methods MAY slant oil analysis to some degree - does it?



I'm convinced it will - and a couple of oil analysis outfits (Blackstone for one) agree, but claim it's usually relatively minor. (doesn't mean *I* will stop using it, only that I recognize the possible effect of its use!)



Don claims extended drain intervals are likely to create/allow more wear than oil changes at recommended intervals - will they?



Seems pretty logical to ME that oil fresh from the can WILL provide better protection than stuff that's been in the crankcase for 50,000 miles and a couple of years...



And Don makes those opinions WITHOUT need for insult or personal attack, or demeaning attitude...



His critics could learn a LOT from him!



Keep doing what yer doing Don - the truth may sometimes HURT, but the benefits of exposure to truth vastly outweigh the liabilities!



And THAT'S what *I* come here for!

 

[Midnite]

This thread has nothing to do with oil, oil analysis, or drain intervals. It's nothing more than mud slinging, and name calling, and a moderator probably should have pulled the plug on it by now.



Sled Puller, I have read with interest posts you've made in the past, and generally hold your opinions in pretty high regard. However you are out of line here.



Mike

 

[NVR FNSH]

Re: Innocent he aint.

Originally posted by Riflesmith

He treated those of us who use Amosil as if we were idiots in need of his counsel. He has preached incessantly against extended drain intervals, calling oil analysis "junk science", telling us that oil filtration is bad because it "skews oil analysis results" and "hides engine wear".

gee, change the above to reference political beliefs/leanings and you're describing a lot of people who post on this site - Power Wagon, MGM/Sled Puller(?), rrausch, etc, etc. No offense meant to any of these guys - just making an observation.



Sled Puller - I've posted on those threads as well - care to call me out? I'd like to see the ENGINE TEST data from Amsoil as well.



The last post on the 'Amsoil' thread from ford-diesel.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Amsoil has 30 years of backing to proove they do what hey say they do. Enough is enough. "

Bob





How long has Cummins been building engines? Seems like it's been a bit more than 30 years..... I'll stick with their recommendations/requirements.



Amsoil/Redline/BillyBob's etc claim to meet or exceed the API classifications - presumably this means they have run the API tests. So, if they've already spent the money to run the test and prove that they meet the classification why not get API certification? The price you pay for the oil already has the testing costs loaded onto it so the licensing costs would be only marginally more. You, the consumer, are already paying a premium for the oil so the few pennies per gallon more shouldn't be any great concern in order to have API certification on your wunder oil. The rationale behind Amsoils 'API statement' sounds a bit suspicious to me.



Brian



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Any thoughts/explanations regarding the testing procedures?



Brian

 

[Briar Hopper]

I apologize if anyone thinks I'm out of line.

Would you not get "out of line" too, once in awhile, if someone was unfairly attacking a product that you use, and believe in, and make money on? What if this was DTT being attacked, and not Amsoil? Don M was quite clever in recognizing how much this would stir up things...

GaryKJ6Q, excellent defense of Don. Law school may be in your future. However, you missed the old posts before the original 25 page nightmare, when Don was insulting to me.

Don M was incorrect on several points in the original 25 page nightmare thread. Yet he kept on, and on, and on, and on... ... why the extreme persistence? That is why I called him what I did. He was irritating, and argumentative to me, due to his extreme persistence on this subject. He made his point, several valid points, yet he kept on. He found several different ways to phrase and re-phrase the same thing, over and over again. We don't need a 4-ball wear test, just use his posts, that would wear out teflon coated with Amsoil!

In my opinion, he has been successful in accomplishing what he started out to do. Making Amsoil , and it's dealers, look bad.

I do have a lot of email from friends around the country, some of whom don't even use Amsoil, that have less than complimentary things to say about Don.

My animosity towards him actually started before the Amsoil thread, on another subject, when HE was the one being insulting .

But some of you wouldn't know that. You only read as much or as far as it suits you to do so, thereby missing a lot.

Sit back and take in the big picture. His extreme persistence in pursuing this says a lot, yet a lot of you ignore that.

Don, I call them like I see them. A person using your tactics in a verbal conversation would long ago have seen half the audience walk off, with the other half getting more and more hostile, perhaps even physical. But the internet being what it is, you can persist in your methods, largely with impunity.

You made your points. Yet you keep on, and on, and on, and on.....

 

[RJOL]

Amsoil... ... ... ... . Amway... ... ... ... I'm confused... . Oh well, I'll just stay in the dark and change my oil every 3000 miles.....

 

[TxDieselKid]

this is not a flame.....

What if this was DTT being attacked, and not Amsoil?

Wouldn't Bill come on and do the same thing? We remember Bill's old threads about the Torque Lock, Suncoast, BD, and every other pop-off he has had(these are the best threads!). Those were funny because Bill KNOWS his stuff. Does he point to websites to prove points, no we trust him(I do at least). Change the name to Don, and insted of trusting him, he shows links. I think Don has done some research in this area though.



But we all know Bill wins because everybody backs him up.



Andrew

---------------------------------

Plans on useing Amsoil in the rear ax one day, please read title of this post again.

 

[Don M]

Briar,



In the last few threads you have been the one to be "extreme"



I remember the last thread on the API thing and you told me and all the other members you did not make money from selling Amsoil.

your words are here from page 21:"Look up above, Andrew, he's asking me if I'm a dealer. Intending to hammer home another one of his points, no doubt, mainly the one he's already made, that dealers have a vested interest in defending Amsoil. Well, of course" "I don't sell it, for a profit, or at cost, unless I'm asked for it by friends (and many do seek me out asking for it). "



These are your words from the closed thread Briar.



Now lets look at your words from today stating you sell the oil and make money.



Briar wrote today: " So more than one person thinks I'm out of line. Fine. I apologize if I am.

Would you not get "out of line" too, once in awhile, if someone was unfairly attacking a product that you use, and believe in, and make money on?



Briar you have been caught twisting words around not me. Some would or could call that lying.



Stop lying to me Briar just because you dont like me.



Don~