Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Falure rate for rebuilt VP-44's by specific rebuilders

[Gary - K7GLD]

I'd like to do a poll on this board to see how well the rebuilt VP-44's are doing as far as failures are concerned - focusing upon rebuilts done within the last 4 years, and stock pumps only, no hotrod pumps.



SO, if you have installed a rebuilt VP-44 that fits the above criteria, and it subsequently failed, please indicate who did the rebuild. You might also want to include a post if there were unusual circumstances that might have caused early failure, such as a failed lift pump or clogged fuel filter.



Supposedly, the more recent rebuilt VP-44's, due to revisions and upgrades, are more bulletproof and less failure prone than the OEM ones and earlier rebuilts - let's see if they really are!



Keep in mind this is about the more popular rebuilders whose names are well known on this board - not just every Bosch rebuilder in the nation, after all, if we learn that shop "X" has an unusually high failure rate compared to others, that MIGHT be informative where some little known shop wouldn't be nearly as relevant. However, just to be fair and cover all bases, a "other rebuilder" selection is provided.



This is NOT intended to become a venting thread against ANY rebuilder, but simply an information gathering exercise - and I'm well aware that varying numbers of VP-44's rebuilt by different rebuilders and bought by TDR members will likely slew percentage results to a degree, so this is by no means a scientific exercise, just a general one that provides at least SOME vague indication of rebuilt VP-44 success in recent pumps. Let's benefit from what this poll IS and can be, and not make something out of it that it is NOT...



Also keep in mind that some shops are not rebuilders themselves, and install rebuilts they obtain from other sources such as those above - I want ONLY the primary rebuilders themselves, so if a local shop was known to have used a pump obtained from one of the rebuilding shops above, that's the one to vote for, not the shop that did the swap.



Feel free to offer comments and opinions along with your vote - or otherwise for that matter...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

This is a case where no news is GOOD news - but over on the Cummins Forum where this same poll is also running, there are 15 voters so far...

 

[GarrettPetersen]

Im willin to bet my failure was due to the comp and at the time of the failures I wasnt runnin the FASS. Ive killed 4 of them in 5 years. Since then Ive unhooked the comp and installed the FASS and "knock on wood" I aint had a pump fail since.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Im willin to bet my failure was due to the comp and at the time of the failures I wasnt runnin the FASS. Ive killed 4 of them in 5 years. Since then Ive unhooked the comp and installed the FASS and "knock on wood" I aint had a pump fail since.

Well, either that, or your last one is one of those latest ones with all the right revisions - hope your luck holds, because *I* have one of those "latest revision" rebuilts on my truck too... :-laf

 

[Timbeaux38]

I think you guys are reading Waaaaay too much into stuff. The results here will be so skewed that you wont be able to draw a conclusion. I think you are focusing on too narrow of a group, or you think that there are gonna be more failures for one particular vendor that you want to highlight. It is no secret that the "Hotrod" Pumps by II, Scheid, and others are more failure prone than a Bluechip "Fedex" pump.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I think you guys are reading Waaaaay too much into stuff. The results here will be so skewed that you wont be able to draw a conclusion. I think you are focusing on too narrow of a group, or you think that there are gonna be more failures for one particular vendor that you want to highlight. It is no secret that the "Hotrod" Pumps by II, Scheid, and others are more failure prone than a Bluechip "Fedex" pump.

DID you read the lead post?



There was no claim for scientific accuracy - merely a rough idea as to what's happening out there with various rebuilders and the latest revision level pumps - and I specifically asked that NO hotrod pumps be reported...



This is not intended as a lynching thread for any rebuilder, just a rough info gathering exercise that might possibly provide encouragement for those of us who have suffered thru and had to replace VP-44's either recently, or in the past...



In terms of reported percentages, I doubt any reasonable person would get too excited if Rebuilder "A" came in with 10 failures, and brand "B" reported only 5 - easily explained by uncontrollable variables.



BUT, if brand "A" came in with 75 failures, while the next closest brand "B" still only had 5, THEN you might reasonably start wondering... :-laf

 

[Timbeaux38]

Yeah Gary, I read your post. My point is, you have a very narrow scope from which to choose and your option that will most likely get you the most votes is too vague to worry about. Id venture a guess that 90% of the upgraded pumps you are asking about on this board came from DC or Cummins. Why start a thread nitpicking over the other 10%????? If all these guys get the hard parts they need from bosch, and the boards from bosch, there shouldnt be that much diffrence anyway.

 

[rweis]

My . 02



DC replaced my VP44 in summer of '05, but I have NO idea when it was rebuilt or even if it was a rebuilt and not a "new" pump if that even existed then in the DC supply inventories.



I liken this to (21 years flying turbine aircraft in USAF) "why did the engine fail". We would "try" to determine a cause, but in a large % of the cases it was "unknown", bird?, fuel contamination? which of the 18 tanks? a bad fuel pump? which of the I think over 40 in tank pumps, etc etc etc. Just too many variables to be able to really make sense out of it. If it WAS something like bearing failure then oil analysis, quarentine, specialist of all types of areas looking with everything from electron microscopes, to wear tables, to etc, etc, and decades and decades of experience from the manufacturer and the USAF, and extensive maintenance records for every time the engine was touched by anyone within the last xxx amount of time.



There are so many variables, age of the fuel, water content of the fuel, fuel filter change cycles, fuel additives (manufactured and "home brew"), fuel temperatures, fuel pressures, fuel volume, fuel cleanliness, how low does the tank go before refuel, where is the lift pump ( Fass 90, FASS 150, RASP, Mallory, Carter, which models, what volume, what pressures, vane type, gear type, and when was it mounted there), how big are the banjos even if there are even banjos on that truck, what about the return line?, resized?, stock? AN-6 line, AN-8 line and how much of it (I have a lot (actually too much) of AN-6)? what kind of filtering?, stock, more than stock, multiple filters? what micron?, what kind of hose?, which manufacturer? hose composition?, hose ratings. What type of loads does this truck pull?, what altitudes?, what weather?, what temperatures? Just so, so many variables.



If we could have a well written, well documented, history on EACH failure regardless of manufacturer and then an analysis by experts (remanufacturers). The cost would be huge. The benefits would be interesting. However, I doubt if it is practical, but sure would be interesting.



Short of that, it is all a WAG and you go with your best feelings.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

While it's true we have heard it expressed that all Bosch rebuilders "use the same parts and procedures, so there's really NO difference between shop "A" and "B"" - here's what one shop owner who installs and sells rebuilts has to say on the subject:

Don't want to raise a stink here, not my purpose in posting, what I wanted ALL members to know is if they need a pump and the place they select to get it from reuses the housing and electronics in MY opinion that is not a good place to buy from. My remanufacturer (a completely different person/operation than a rebuilder) uses a Bosch "Kit" and new housing and electronics package on each pump. What is in the kit specifically I don't know but if Bosch says use it they do and we have basically zero problems. As you can see from other posts in this thread lots of folks have had more than one pump becuase of the issues and ways some rebuilders build the pump.

Draw your own conclusions as to whether "all rebuilders and rebuilt VP-44's are the same"...

 

[BradyWilliams]

It is no secret also that Hot Rod pumps also have a high occurance of customers using very aggesive fueling boxes and or stacked fueling boxes. Since it's no secret that such items can cause PSG/IAT failures, we always use the best and most durable parts including the PSG (brain box). You talk about the Fedex pump or PSG, that is old news we have been using those for a long time and there is a new updated number since then. Our Hot Rod pumps have new camrings, advance pistons, head & rotors, housings, PSG's, rollers, shoes and diaphrams and any other parts needed. We always try to help even when things are not our fault. Even so our warranties are not high. Bosch nor Cummins or even D/C will not warrant a burnt out PSG with a pierced wire or PSG housing. Believe me if they would things would be great.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

It is no secret also that Hot Rod pumps also have a high occurance of customers using very aggesive fueling boxes and or stacked fueling boxes. Since it's no secret that such items can cause PSG/IAT failures, we always use the best and most durable parts including the PSG (brain box). You talk about the Fedex pump or PSG, that is old news we have been using those for a long time and there is a new updated number since then. Our Hot Rod pumps have new camrings, advance pistons, head & rotors, housings, PSG's, rollers, shoes and diaphrams and any other parts needed. We always try to help even when things are not our fault. Even so our warranties are not high. Bosch nor Cummins or even D/C will not warrant a burnt out PSG with a pierced wire or PSG housing. Believe me if they would things would be great.

Does that mean a "regular" or "ordinary" rebuilt will not have all those same parts replaced - or perhaps only some of them?



Thanks for your input - we need all we can get from the guys doing the actual rebuilding!

 

[rweis]

As I remember more $ = more parts.



Sounds like a hotrod Vp44 regardless of how you drive or how many BOMBS you have.



That is why I would like to be able to talk to the rebuilder and get the absolute max rebuild for whatever $ it takes to do that. However that would NOT mean that it would last longer, too many variables.



Bob Weis

 

[Scott Elliott]

I've had my VP replaced by DC 4 times (all under warranty, thank goodness) and my lift pump twice on my dime and the final one DC replaced under warranty with an in-tank pump. No engine/fuel mods at the time (I do have an FP gauge on my truck). In the case of my most recent VP failures, replacement #2 lasted 2 weeks before failing, and replacement # 3 lasted 1 week after it was installed before it died and left my truck stalled in traffic with no warning. Replacement # 4 has been going strong for 8 months and 16k miles. I have no idea who DC uses as a rebuilder, but I am not impressed. Now that my warranty is up, I hope this pump lasts a while. Oh, and I now have an Edge Comp box on it.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

WELL, after a bit of initial hysteria that the results of this poll would surface lots of failures that could easily be traced to external causes, and slew results, - rather than direct rebuild problems - or that responders might turn it into a lynching party for rebuilders they had grudges against, results to date are anti-climactic! :-laf



Neither has occurred.



Instead, if responses can be believed and unlike the identical poll over on the Cummins Forum:



http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/9...-vp-44-failure-rates-specific-rebuilders.html



... there are NO reported failures of ANY kind in recent pumps installed in the last 4 years or so by the better known rebuilders represented on this board.



I won't attempt to try to guess why this poll differs from the other - certainly there's enough interest in VP-44 failures to bring out any that would apply, as has happened in other similar polls - but since I currently own 2 of these recent rebuilt pumps, I'll just take encouragement that BOTH of them are likely to live a long and healthy life.



Along those lines, the few annoyed owners of failed older VP-44's might want to take note, and more carefully reconsider their interest in swapping over to a P7100 style pump at a cost several times the replacement of a single VP-44. If newer ones aren't failing, as this poll seemingly has revealed, why go to the effort and expense of changing?

 

[BILLVO]

I think if you had DC on the poll as a supplier you would have some interesting poll numbers. I had 1 done under warranty at 40k miles now have 85k on rig and this one is still going strong. It was done in 04 I think.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I think if you had DC on the poll as a supplier you would have some interesting poll numbers. I had 1 done under warranty at 40k miles now have 85k on rig and this one is still going strong. It was done in 04 I think.

I wonder where DC gets their rebuilts - and if it's from a single source?

 

[flattracker]

Since any other replacement engine part you buy for these trucks from dodge comes from cummins I would assume the VP44 does also.

 

[DCreed]

This is a valuable thread to members. Lets keep it up and current!

 

[EBung]

This is a valuable thread to members. Lets keep it up and current!

I agree. My original 02 pump went out at 62,000 miles and I replaced it with a II SO pump. Still havent re-pierced it yet.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

This is a valuable thread to members. Lets keep it up and current!

Well, while this poll is not of "Laboratory accuracy" or purity - it DOES pretty well establish that the rebuilders most frequently mentioned with respect on this board have FAR fewer reported failures that those "Other" rebuilders...