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Ford/International 6L Legal Issues

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Is it my area, or did diesel just jump $.25/gal overnight?

whats the lowest temp you've ever fired your ctd in?

CROW

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Read on the RV Daily report which cited Business Week as a source that there are now five lawsuits seeking class action status against Navistar (International) because of design and manufacturing defects in the 6L motor. Covers the years 2003 thru 2007. Ford wasn't mentioned in the blip I read. Suits are in California, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee and Utah. This could have huge implications. Have a buddy I fish with who has almost 100K on one with few issues and no major ones so they are not all bad. Just glad I do not own one.
 
Ford will get pulled into it eventually. This quote is from someone who works for one of the major auto mfgs (in engine controls iirc)
Look up warranty for the 6. 0L for Navistar vs. Ford.



As delivered the 6. 0L was an awesome engine, however, beancounters at Ford wet the bed when they saw how much the new unit injector design cost. Ford put the design up for bid and went with an injector supplier that lied and said they could provide the functionality Ford wanted at the price Ford specified.



Of course, the rest is history.
 
I've been on an RVing vacation with my wife and two female German Shepherd "children" for the past 10 days so am just beginning to read the posts I missed.

I am not a fan of ambulance chasing attorneys and not in favor of frivilous lawsuits for any reason but Navistar and Furd probably should be sued and made to pay big bucks for the lousy Sick. Ohh engine. I personally talked to many owners of new but high mileage Furd Sick. Ohh owners when I was transporting who were severely harmed by the lousy Navistar engines. Some were older retired guys who were trying to make a living pulling trailers with fancy King Ranch Furds. Some of them experienced failed engines just out of warranty, lost their source of income as a result, and were forced into bankruptcy and had their trucks repossessed.

In my opinion based on knowing about a lot of them, the ONLY Furd Sick. Ohhs that haven't failed yet are the ones that have few miles on them and that have not been used to tow heavy loads for lots of miles. I believe that every single Furd Sick. Ohh put in commercial service towing heavy trailers will fail and will fail catastrophically.

When used to tow a trailered boat to the lake on summer weekends or to pull a light travel trailer once in awhile lots of Sick. Ohhs were probably satisfactory but not when hooked up to a heavy trailer everyday for 100k miles which is routine service for a Cummins-powered Dodge Ram.
 
Keep in mind that this engine wasn't a splendid performer in International's own trucks either.



I'll second that one. As I've said in previous threads on this subject, we have around 25 medium duty Internationals at work with the VT-365. I don't think that there is a one of them at this point that hasn't had turbo, egr cooler, injector, or all out engine failures. Some, more that once. There literally isn't a day that one isn't tossing something out on the ground. It's so bad, our drivers can't wait for their unit to go down so they can run the one of the old DT466 Internationals or 5. 9L Freightliner that they have as backups.
 
I couldn't resist this one. I bought one of the first Furd POS 6 leakers in early 03. I bought it for the Crew cab and against my better judgement went for the hype and went with the new engine. The POS spent so much time in the shop that I bought a used pickup so I could work so I could make the payments on the POS truck that was unfixable over and over. Fortunately in 04 Furd bought the junker back and I went straight to Dodge and bought an 04. 5 Cummins. I sold it earlier this year since I upped to a Mega cab. The 04. 5 never saw the shop one time in over 5 years. I have always had good luck with the Dodge Cummins combo. I have a buddy that had 2 of the POS 6 leakers bought back as well. Every time we pull up to a fuel station and see a 6. O No owner, we smile at each other and usually go talk to them. Usually there is a little oil drip while they are filling up. Most tell of many problems, every now and then you get the no problems answer. I wonder if they are pulling my leg? I would not buy a Furd Sick. O No for any price, unless it was to put a Cummins in it!

I feel better now.
 
One of my friends was driven to near Bankrupt with 2 6. 0 trucks Between the two trucks 4 engines in 6 years. What a disaster for him.
 
The company that I work for just recently lost an engine at 97k due to loss of oil pressure on the lube pump on an 07.



I personally picked up the truck from the dealer with 14 miles on the clock in February 07 and even "brand new", it had quite some difficulty starting in sub-zero temps.



I can't say anything bad about Ford's drive train at all cause all of the miles have been on dirt roads and is darn near 500k worth of paved roads IMHO. And almost 8k hrs for engine hrs total... But the simple fact is that the engine QUIT!!!



Almost every time it was started in recent months, it had the check gauges light come on for about 15 seconds and the oil pressure was 0! The gauge is just an idiot light on a 6 psi switch!!!



Another guy from here with an 05 6. 0L with 25k had a catastrophic failure of the EGR cooler and resulted in bent connecting rods and a total loss!!



Both of the trucks did an awesome job, but the engines didn't last as long as the should have.



I have a 92 Cummins with over 300k and it never had a hiccup or hint of an emanate failure on the horizon and just goes to prove that Navistar and Ford just got it wrong from the start :-laf





Edit: Maybe they should have looked at putting the same Cummins they have been using for years in medium duty trucks into the pickups :cool:
 
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Read on the RV Daily report which cited Business Week as a source that there are now five lawsuits seeking class action status against Navistar (International) because of design and manufacturing defects in the 6L motor. Covers the years 2003 thru 2007. Ford wasn't mentioned in the blip I read. Suits are in California, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee and Utah. This could have huge implications. Have a buddy I fish with who has almost 100K on one with few issues and no major ones so they are not all bad. Just glad I do not own one.







I bet he never pulled a heavy trailer with it. That's when the Powerjoke has problems.



george
 
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My brother in law just bought an 03 Ford six leaker in June to replace his half ton that couldn't pull his "half ton pullable travel trailer":-laf He bought it with 68k on the clock and has put right around 7k miles on it. Even though he knew the reputation of the six leaker he bought one anyway. He's had steering issues and a cam sensor go bad. Its a nice truck but its still a ford. Only time will tell how good his luck is.
 
CurtLee have your brother in law watch out for these things mentioned by a former Ford insider:



6. 0L- issues with egr coolers, head gaskets, turbo vgt vane sticking, and injectors. Injectors are fired with high pressure oil, oil gets nasty, thick and causes stiction. This restricts the spool valves in the injectors from allowing fuel to enter the combustion chamber properly resulting in run roughs. Turbo VGT vanes stick/rust in conjunction with the unison ring. This results in some cases as a lack of power but recently, more overboost issues causing headgasket failures. EGR coolers flat out suck, internally fail and cause venting out of the degas bottle. Most commonly the silicates drop out of the coolant, plug the oil cooler and restrict coolant from flowing to the EGR cooler. This causes localized boiling in the EGR cooler, results in hot spots and leads to cracks. I would never own one outside of warranty and if I did, it'd have an egr cooler delete kit, good maintenance and head studs.



he also had this to say about the 6. 4
6. 4L- insanely sensitive to fuel contamination. When water or any other contaminate enters the fuel system it damages the high pressure pump. The high pressure pump is lubricated solely with diesel fuel. When a lack of lubricity is present for a second it sends metal through the high pressure fuel rails and into the injectors. When contaminated, the entire HP fuel system needs to be replaced (9k avg. cost and non warrantable). The 6. 4L also has issues with under valve cover high pressure fuel leaks. This overfills the crankcase and backs up the breather tube, and makes its way into the charge air cooler. It builds up until you romp on it, then results in a melt down, typically on cylinders 2 and 8. This is a catastrophic failure requiring minimum a short block and head. EGR coolers fail, typically the horizontal one. I would never own one out of warranty, period.
 
Brods - isn't it accurate to say the 3rd gen Cummins fuel system is equally sensitive to contaminated fuel?

The CP-3 is lubricated only by diesel fuel as well.

I'm not defending International, just wanted to be fair and point out the Cummins (and Duramax) HPCR systems are also extremely sensitive.

-Ryan
 
yes. . fuel injection pumps have been lubricated by diesel fuel for years... fuel quality and contamination has become increasingly important since pressures have increased and modern diesel fuel has changed.
 
Other reasons for failures of the 6. 0s is for whatever reason Navistar designed it with only 4 head bolts surrounding each cylinder vs. the 6 typically used. Naturally that would lead to head gasket issues which I know is another 6. 0 weakness.

Another not-uncommon problem early on was block porosity which in some cases was bad enough to let oil and coolant mix.

Further complicating things was poor valvetrain design (particularly rocker arms) which resulted in rocker breakage, broken valves, etc.

On top of all this the '03s had poorly routed wiring harnesses that chafed and cause all kinds of drivability problems, but I think most of this was addressed under recalls.

Outsourcing injectors and cutting corners on manufacturing was part of the problem but there was poor engineering to go along with it.

So far, fortunately for Ford, their own diesel is off to a far better start than the 6. 0L and 6. 4L engines supplied by Navistar.
 
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brods and vaughn thanks for the info I'll pass it along to him. I don't think he'll heed the warnings but at least he'll have them.
 
I can't provide an accurate date but I believe it was as soon as the Furds accumulated some mileage in heavy towing.
 
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