Fram response RE: Fram oil filters in Cummins 5.9

[WadePatton]

Re: BHAF

Originally posted by mbaston

So, what is a BHAF? When I first changed the airfilter in my 2000, I was told the K&N was the way to go. Now it seems to be a "bad boy". I have 118,000 miles on my truck and it needs to last much longer.

Do a search for BHAF--might get a hit or two



Big Honkin (PG version) Air Filter. Dry element canister type filter that we replace the stock airbox with. More air for less $$$(~40usd) than anything and cool to look at and no oil to mess with.

 

[lmills]

I must agree on the aftermarket air filters. My K&N will be coming out shortly. My friend had an engine with a filtercharger kit and at about 35,000 miles on a fresh engine. Recently we pulled the engine so he could do what he thought would be a quick freshen up before race season. He was going to add some aluminum heads and other goodies. He was shocked when he took the heads off and saw that all the cylinders were scarred badly. The nearest we can figure is it was the K&N filter. After seeing it first hand, I am not going to bad mouth K&N. I just worry about this happening to a truck I plan to drive every day for the next million miles.

 

[swalls]

Simple as 1-2-3!

Friends, I have cut open a ton of oil filters in the last 25 years. Since Fram was bought by Allied Signal, I have no doubt that brand was designed to be the lowest-cost filter by any means possible. IMHO, the Wix filter line goal is to fit in somewhere between the premium brands and the Big Wally price-busters both in price and quality. I state that in my opinion, every "identical" Fleetguard filter I have ever seen is 1st in quality and overall value, the Wix comes in a distant 2nd (regardless of your high esteem of them, IllFlem, but I'm just another guy from Two Dot, ya know) and the Frame a dismal 3rd.

I have posted these pix of "identical" filters before. No it's not the filter that goes in our 5. 9, it fits the Big Brother 8. 3L. The filters for the 5. 9 show very similar differences in grades of quality, however. I will get pix of the 5. 9L filter soon as I can obtain a clean Fram.



Oil filter pix

 

[jmadden]

Seems like I recall hearing about Fleetguard changing the filter design (thicker mounting plate maybe?) because pressures were causing them to fail. Anyone else remember hearing something? If so do you think any other manufacturers went on to correct this problem? I only ask after seeing the lics linked by swalls and hearing the comment about thin and thick mounting plates...



jm

 

[illflem]

I have never said I hold Fram in high esteem nor that they are high quality. All I've said that is their rate of failure is no worse than any other filter. If you figure they are selling probably 200+ million filters a year they are bound to have more failures than a filter that only sells a couple million tops like Fleetguard.

That was the whole point of this thread in the beginning, Fram's failures, not it's filtering quality.





First post of this thread



August 2002 TECHNICAL INFORMATION



It has been brought to our attention that a few DaimlerChrysler service technicians are recommending that the FRAM PH3976 filter not be used on Daimler Chrysler vehicles withthe Cummins 5. 9L Turbo Diesel engine and that use of these filters can cause damage to the engine. Daimler Chrysler has informed us that they released a Technical Service Bulletin to their dealerships communicating a potential contamination issue and recommending the use of Fleetguard manufactured filters.



FRAM has been selling PH3976 filter for this engine application since the engine platform launch and it has maintained an extremely reliable service record. Late in 2000, Cummins and Daimler Chrysler brought to our attention a low incidence failure mode in their Cummins 5. 9L Turbo Diesel engine of the piston cooling nozzle plugging, resulting in engine failure. The plugging was caused by contaminates lodging in the nozzle. The contaminants included metal chips, calcium carbonate, polyethylene, and styrene butadiene that are not associated with filter manufacture, and a neoprene compound, which is used as a sealant on the tapping plate of the filter. There were also several other engine warranty issues determined unrelated to the piston cooling nozzle plugging that were part of the engine failure sample. A small amount of neoprene rubber was used in the FRAM filter as a sealant.



Throughout our investigation with Cummins & DaimlerChrysler on various engine failures, no conclusive evidence was found to assign cause to filters or other contamination sources. However, driven to satisfy our customers, the FRAM engineering team made modifications to the design eliminating the neoprene and expedited development and manufacturing to release a revised filter model number to PH3976A. With the design change on the PH3976A completely removing the use of neoprene, there is absolutely no validity in comments that the Fram filter should not be used for this application or that it may cause engine failures associated with plugged nozzles.



The Honeywell Consumer Products Group warranty policy also protects the consumer if it is determined that a FRAM filter is responsible for damage to an engine due to defects in design or workmanship. This information should be openly conveyed to our customers if they have any concerns or apprehension about using a FRAM filter for this application.

 

[WadePatton]

Re: Simple as 1-2-3!

yep, that confirms my thoughts. NEVER use the cheap filter.

Originally posted by swalls

Friends, I have cut open a ton of oil filters in the last 25 years. Since Fram was bought by Allied Signal, I have no doubt that brand was designed to be the lowest-cost filter by any means possible. IMHO, the Wix filter line goal is to fit in somewhere between the premium brands and the Big Wally price-busters both in price and quality. I state that in my opinion, every "identical" Fleetguard filter I have ever seen is 1st in quality and overall value, the Wix comes in a distant 2nd (regardless of your high esteem of them, IllFlem, but I'm just another guy from Two Dot, ya know) and the Frame a dismal 3rd.

I have posted these pix of "identical" filters before. No it's not the filter that goes in our 5. 9, it fits the Big Brother 8. 3L. The filters for the 5. 9 show very similar differences in grades of quality, however. I will get pix of the 5. 9L filter soon as I can obtain a clean Fram.



Oil filter pix

GO LOOK!

 

[swalls]

I don't hold Wix in high esteem either!

From Ilflem's last post: "I have never said I hold Fram in high esteem nor that they are high quality. All I've said that is their rate of failure is no worse than any other filter. If you figure they are selling probably 200+ million filters a year they are bound to have more failures than a filter that only sells a couple million tops like Fleetguard. That was the whole point of this thread in the beginning, Fram's failures, not it's filtering quality. "



Ilflem, I was refering to your previous filter posts regarding Wix filters. I do not mean to give offense, and I wasn't implying that you favor Frams.



I think the point we should all consider is WHY aren't the Fram & Wix filters on the Cummins approved list in the TSB?



Answer: they are *apparently* BOTH cheap filters which do NOT meet the standards set by Cummins. That is why I posted the pix showing the "typical" differences between a Fleetguard & the other two. Clearly a case of cost vs quality. The pretty paint job on the outside hides the cost-cutting measures on the inside. The amazing thing is that there is NOT that much price difference between a Fleetguard and a Fram, and there is less between a Fleeter and a Wix. We're not talking more than 5 bucks from the cheapest Big Wally discount rack to the list price on the Fleeter. and normally you can get the Fleetguards at jobber price or better at most Cummins, Case-IH, Navistar International, Freightliner, etc.

The other two *apparently* are not constructed of high enough quality materials to realiably withstand the conditions that they MIGHT enounter in the CTD. I believe the reason they don't have an astronomical failure rate is because NORMALLY our engines don't generate an astronomical rate of debris & trash, so you could just about handle the filtration with a wad of Kleenex. HOWEVER, when and if your engine does somehow spew out some extra iron from a slowly progressive turbo failure, or somehow picks up a load of dirt, or the oil pressure pegs out at 125 PSI some frosty morning, what do you guys want on there to handle the job? A *non-approved* "cost-engineered" price buster, or a filter that was *engineered* by Cummins/Fleetguard to handle the job?

It's totally up to each owner how much he wants to invest in maintenance, and what he feels secure with, guys. You might get indeed get some warranty with a proven Fram failure, but I've never seen a valid Fleetguard failure on any engine... but I've seen enough of the el crapos innards that they ain't hanging on the side of my engine.

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: Simple as 1-2-3!

Originally posted by swalls



Fleetguard filter I have ever seen is 1st in quality and overall value

Swalls, Have you taken apart a Mopar filter? I know they are made by Fleetguard just like the case filter. Just wondering if you have taken one apart and is it made just as good as the other Fleetguard and the Case filter? Thanks for the great pictures.

 

[swalls]

Mopar filter

Pit Bull, I haven't cut open a Mopar for the ISB. (I don't have enough money to buy parts from Dodge )

My understanding is that they are of course Fleetguards, and have the thicker shell to withstand the 24V oil pressure, but also that they are the cellulose media, not the StrataPore. I could be completely wrong about the media

 

[Sled Puller]

Great pictures!!!

I have come to realize that some guys are looking for the cheapest filter, among other things.

You have given anybody that will look, a birds eye view of what is inside.

They can make their choices.