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Fuel additives
- Thread starter Beards
- Start Date
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Just ask the person around here that ran none in his till it crapped out the pump. He now runs additive all the time.
This is long.
I've been talking with Power Service for the past week or so. They've provided me with some great information. Power Service is supposed to send me a sample container so I can ship them a sample of Amsoil and have their lab test it. I'll share the results when I get them. The following is a compilation of emails from Brian at Power Service Tech Support:
______
Glad to hear that you are using our products and Thank You for the opportunity to address your questions.
Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) has an antigen which prevents the fuel from gelling. It also has a detergent, cetane boost, lubricity, anti-icing, and corrosion package.
Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. The deicer can also help to solubilize small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.
Cetane will cause the fuel to ignite a split second sooner than fuel with low cetane. This will cause the engine to start faster and help the fuel to burn more completely and aid in fuel economy, reduce emissions and noise.
The detergent in DFS will help to keep the injectors clean which is the key to better fuel economy. The EMA (Engine Manufacturers Association) recommends the use of a detergent. Their research shows that low sulfur fuels have a tendency to form carbon deposits on fuel injectors. The DFS will prevent these deposits from forming. These deposits interfere with the fuel injector spray pattern, cause the engine to smoke, emit more emissions and reduce fuel economy.
Lubricity will help the fuel pump to last longer. The vast majority of fuel pumps in diesel engines are lubricated by the fuel and in the USA one-third of the fuels do not meet the minimum lubricity requirements. The DFS has enough lubricity to raise these fuels up to the minimum standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. The fuel pump manufacturers BOSCH, Delphi, Denso, Siemens and Stanadyne say that lubricity is the most valuable and crucial property of diesel fuel.
Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injectors to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions (even NOx) and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. The stability package helps the fuel to resist thermal breakdown which can cause the fuel to darken and form particulate materials which create gum residues in the fuel system.
Diesel Kleen is the only additive on the market that has effectively demonstrated the ability to reduce NOx (Nitrogen Oxides) which are the fine particles & ground level ozone often called Urban Smog. It will also reduce the other diesel emissions like black smoke, PM, CO, and HC. It also has the strongest detergent package on the market.
When it comes to water dispersal the following will apply.
A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.
Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel your are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Both Ford and Chevy have advised against the use of emulsifiers because of possible engine damage caused by water droplets in the fuel. These water droplets also reduce the lubricity of the fuel and hurt fuel pumps and can pit, scare and destroy injector tips, according to Ford and Chevy.
Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement do not contain demulsifiers, emulsifiers or alcohols.
Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets and it is not an emulsifier.
There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911. It takes a lot of water dispersant to take care of free water so it will take up a lot of room in a container.
If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. You might also use it once a month in the equipment during the winter just to be sure condensation doesn't build up in the system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water in a vehicle . Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem .
Diesel 911 does not contain any methyl or ethyl alcohols. It is a proprietary mixture containing Hydroxyl Compounds. These de-icers are used in many diesel fuel additives that are currently on the market.
It is also interesting to note that Power Service Products, Inc. is one of the few diesel fuel manufacturers that have their own chemical storage tanks, own lab and one of the most modern and automated production lines in the industry. We buy our chemicals by the truck load, tanker load and sometimes by a million gallons at a time. We control our costs in this way which keeps us cost competitive and we also do not experience shortages which would stop production in the critical winter months. Our chemist in our own lab come up with our formulations and test them for performance and quality. We mix our own chemicals at our tank farm and then send them to our warehouse for bottling, box the product and store it for shipping. Most of our competitors use what we call "cold blenders". That is they come up with a formulation and then send it off to a blending facility who purchase the chemicals and mix them to the required specifications, bottle and box and label the product and then ship it back to the owner who warehouse it until it is sold. This causes their prices to be usually higher than ours. Often since they have higher costs due to the cold blend process they put out an inferior product and say it is equal to or better than ours.
I've been talking with Power Service for the past week or so. They've provided me with some great information. Power Service is supposed to send me a sample container so I can ship them a sample of Amsoil and have their lab test it. I'll share the results when I get them. The following is a compilation of emails from Brian at Power Service Tech Support:
______
Glad to hear that you are using our products and Thank You for the opportunity to address your questions.
Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) has an antigen which prevents the fuel from gelling. It also has a detergent, cetane boost, lubricity, anti-icing, and corrosion package.
Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. The deicer can also help to solubilize small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.
Cetane will cause the fuel to ignite a split second sooner than fuel with low cetane. This will cause the engine to start faster and help the fuel to burn more completely and aid in fuel economy, reduce emissions and noise.
The detergent in DFS will help to keep the injectors clean which is the key to better fuel economy. The EMA (Engine Manufacturers Association) recommends the use of a detergent. Their research shows that low sulfur fuels have a tendency to form carbon deposits on fuel injectors. The DFS will prevent these deposits from forming. These deposits interfere with the fuel injector spray pattern, cause the engine to smoke, emit more emissions and reduce fuel economy.
Lubricity will help the fuel pump to last longer. The vast majority of fuel pumps in diesel engines are lubricated by the fuel and in the USA one-third of the fuels do not meet the minimum lubricity requirements. The DFS has enough lubricity to raise these fuels up to the minimum standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. The fuel pump manufacturers BOSCH, Delphi, Denso, Siemens and Stanadyne say that lubricity is the most valuable and crucial property of diesel fuel.
Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injectors to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions (even NOx) and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. The stability package helps the fuel to resist thermal breakdown which can cause the fuel to darken and form particulate materials which create gum residues in the fuel system.
Diesel Kleen is the only additive on the market that has effectively demonstrated the ability to reduce NOx (Nitrogen Oxides) which are the fine particles & ground level ozone often called Urban Smog. It will also reduce the other diesel emissions like black smoke, PM, CO, and HC. It also has the strongest detergent package on the market.
When it comes to water dispersal the following will apply.
A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.
Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel your are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Both Ford and Chevy have advised against the use of emulsifiers because of possible engine damage caused by water droplets in the fuel. These water droplets also reduce the lubricity of the fuel and hurt fuel pumps and can pit, scare and destroy injector tips, according to Ford and Chevy.
Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement do not contain demulsifiers, emulsifiers or alcohols.
Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets and it is not an emulsifier.
There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911. It takes a lot of water dispersant to take care of free water so it will take up a lot of room in a container.
If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. You might also use it once a month in the equipment during the winter just to be sure condensation doesn't build up in the system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water in a vehicle . Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem .
Diesel 911 does not contain any methyl or ethyl alcohols. It is a proprietary mixture containing Hydroxyl Compounds. These de-icers are used in many diesel fuel additives that are currently on the market.
It is also interesting to note that Power Service Products, Inc. is one of the few diesel fuel manufacturers that have their own chemical storage tanks, own lab and one of the most modern and automated production lines in the industry. We buy our chemicals by the truck load, tanker load and sometimes by a million gallons at a time. We control our costs in this way which keeps us cost competitive and we also do not experience shortages which would stop production in the critical winter months. Our chemist in our own lab come up with our formulations and test them for performance and quality. We mix our own chemicals at our tank farm and then send them to our warehouse for bottling, box the product and store it for shipping. Most of our competitors use what we call "cold blenders". That is they come up with a formulation and then send it off to a blending facility who purchase the chemicals and mix them to the required specifications, bottle and box and label the product and then ship it back to the owner who warehouse it until it is sold. This causes their prices to be usually higher than ours. Often since they have higher costs due to the cold blend process they put out an inferior product and say it is equal to or better than ours.
Looks like I got the last word on this one. Hmm.
?????
"Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets and it is not an emulsifier. "
Is this confusing to anyone else???? I think I follow but... .
I have heard good things about their products for years but have been happy with another brand. I do use & believe in additives.
I checked their web Page and under the 911 product it says to drain all the water from the bottom of your tank, and THAN add their 911. If we could do that, does using 911 become so important?
Re-read the above quote after good nights sleep and it made more sense. Just wish their web page was clearer about when & why to use each different product.
"Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets and it is not an emulsifier. "
Is this confusing to anyone else???? I think I follow but... .
I have heard good things about their products for years but have been happy with another brand. I do use & believe in additives.
I checked their web Page and under the 911 product it says to drain all the water from the bottom of your tank, and THAN add their 911. If we could do that, does using 911 become so important?
Re-read the above quote after good nights sleep and it made more sense. Just wish their web page was clearer about when & why to use each different product.
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I don't think a bottle of 911 can solubilize gallons of water. Draining the water off the bottom of the tank and then adding 911 allows the 911 to work and not get overwheamed by an overabundance of water in the tank. I've personally never used 911 and can't speak from experience.
D. D. - Good Point.
Beards - I use Stanadyne Blue. Still can't figure out if it is a demulsifier or a water soluable type product, but their high mileage pictures showing with & without, on the web page/catalog, sold me.
Have always worried a little about demulsifiers leaving H20 in bottom of tank? Know this can lead to algae. Wish someone who really knows could tell us if there are several good products out there, or if they all do about the same thing and it's ok to shop for price, or if a lot of the products out there are snake oil ?
Beards - I use Stanadyne Blue. Still can't figure out if it is a demulsifier or a water soluable type product, but their high mileage pictures showing with & without, on the web page/catalog, sold me.
Have always worried a little about demulsifiers leaving H20 in bottom of tank? Know this can lead to algae. Wish someone who really knows could tell us if there are several good products out there, or if they all do about the same thing and it's ok to shop for price, or if a lot of the products out there are snake oil ?
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Since we have no tank drain, you can either put a drain in or simply siphon the fluid out of the tank. Just make sure the hose is at the bottom of the tank. Probably not the most ideal method.
I always fuel-up at the Diamond Shamrock Truck stop in Laramie, unless I am out of town. and on the pump it says lubrication additive has been added to the fuel. Will adding diesel kleen, or any other fuel additive for that matter, cause problems with the fuel additive already present in the fuel?
Thanks to everyone for there input, and especially Duluth Diesel for all the information and I look forward to hearing the results.
Thanks,
Beards
P. S. I did pick-up a bottle of diesel kleen but I will wait till I get a response before I use it.
Thanks to everyone for there input, and especially Duluth Diesel for all the information and I look forward to hearing the results.
Thanks,
Beards
P. S. I did pick-up a bottle of diesel kleen but I will wait till I get a response before I use it.
Beards
As you can see from D. D. 's excellent post above, Lubricity additive is just one of many that can help our pumps & engines. I have seen too many fuel dealers that could not produce hard copy when asked for it on what they say they add to their fuels! Adding more, within reason, will do no harm. That way you know it's in there.
As you can see from D. D. 's excellent post above, Lubricity additive is just one of many that can help our pumps & engines. I have seen too many fuel dealers that could not produce hard copy when asked for it on what they say they add to their fuels! Adding more, within reason, will do no harm. That way you know it's in there.
Beards,
I have used PS Diesel Kleen with Total/ Diamond Shamrock fuels, and had no problems. I dont they add a whole lot of lubricity, or it would be a dime a gallon higher than anyone else. I also like that they (at least in CO) put the min cetane rating on the pumps. It would be nice to get the BTU content/ liter, but you take what you can get. I'd go ahead and add it; I dont see what it could hurt.
As for additives in general, I dont think it really matters what you use, everyone has their preferred magic potion; and each one has thier stong and weak points. But, stay away from those that claim to be a sulfur substitute- sulfur itself does NOTHING for lubricity; it is the process used to take out the sulfur (hydrotreating? -cracking? I'm not real sure on the name of the process) that also reduces lubricity. Modern fuel systems are designed to run on low sulfur fuel, but it sure wont hurt to add some lubricity anyway. If an additive company claims to replenish sulfur, they probably have ATF in there, and think Ford owns Cummins. :-laf
Daniel
I have used PS Diesel Kleen with Total/ Diamond Shamrock fuels, and had no problems. I dont they add a whole lot of lubricity, or it would be a dime a gallon higher than anyone else. I also like that they (at least in CO) put the min cetane rating on the pumps. It would be nice to get the BTU content/ liter, but you take what you can get. I'd go ahead and add it; I dont see what it could hurt.
As for additives in general, I dont think it really matters what you use, everyone has their preferred magic potion; and each one has thier stong and weak points. But, stay away from those that claim to be a sulfur substitute- sulfur itself does NOTHING for lubricity; it is the process used to take out the sulfur (hydrotreating? -cracking? I'm not real sure on the name of the process) that also reduces lubricity. Modern fuel systems are designed to run on low sulfur fuel, but it sure wont hurt to add some lubricity anyway. If an additive company claims to replenish sulfur, they probably have ATF in there, and think Ford owns Cummins. :-laf
Daniel
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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