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Fuel Injector Durability

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rbattelle

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On the Two Guys Garage show last night (which was marginally informative), they mention that the 8 injector nozzles on these engines are not visible to the naked eye. :eek:



It seems to me that these tiny laser-drilled holes are going to become the thorn in our sides unless we're certain to run the absolute top-quality fuel filters. Even then, I'm a bit concerned about whether it will be possible to avoid plugging some of these holes during installations of fuel pressure sending units or any other fuel system service.



It's been known for some time that one of the disadvantages to a common rail setup is sensitivity to contaminants in the fuel clogging the injectors (whereas a jerk-pump arrangement uses an injector with a much larger singe-nozzle which is highly resistant to contaminant buildup... see this thread https://www.turbodieselregister.com...3&highlight=common+rail+timing+and+durability[/URL] )



Any thoughts?
 
the size of the injector's pintle nozzles are more or less the same size as previous injectors. invisable to the naked eye is all a matter of how good/bad your eyesite is. it does the same thing, being atomizing the fuel. . these injectors just cost a lot more coin than the older type. .
 
Also there are tolerances that are even tighter than that in the injector pumps.

I'd like to see your secondary pump install when you get done. :D
 
It has 23,000psi injection pressure. I would think that would be enough to keep the nozzels from being pluged for the most part. Obviosly if you get alot of dirt it will plug but I don't think they will be any more sesitve to contaiments than other injectors.
 
I've been curious about whether or not there would be any problems with Dodge's new common rail injectors. So far I haven't seen any posts that would indicate that the Dodge is having the same injector problems as the Duramax. There must be something better about the Dodge design. Any ideas/opinions as to what the difference is?



Bill
 
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The mere fact that there are 8 small holes instead of 1 large one, although increasing the rate of fuel evaporation during injection, indicates these injectors will be significantly more prone to deposit formation than previous jerk-pump type injectors. And the 23000 psi won't stop deposit formation. I'm not talking about the injectors clogging (unless you get some tiny piece of dirt stuck in there), I'm talking about deposits changing the flow pattern, which changes evaporation rates, and of course performance.



Yes, it's 23000 psi, but what if we're talking about a piece of debris 0. 001 square inches... then the force trying to get it out the injector hole is only 23 pounds.



I'm in no way suggesting that these injectors were a bad idea. I just wanted to start a discussion about whether they might have a shorter life than the 2nd/1st gen versions.
 
Things to ponder... With pilot injection, the injector is getting worked harder beacuse there is not ONE single injection event. Instead, there are up to 5 injection pulses. Don't forget about the electronics to drive these injectors...



These injectors are not the same as the ones in the DMax. Not sure about the pump though.
 
I though the 24V injectors had sevral holes in them? Or is it a matter of where the holes are located. From my understanding the injector has a valve in it that opens when a certain pressure is reached then fuel feeds to the holes on the tip of the injector to be atomized into the combustion chamber on the 24V engine. My understanding of the new injectors is that they are opened by an electronic soleniod instead of fuel pressure to open the valve inside the injector then fuel would flow to the holes to be atomized into the combustion chamber. I thought the 12 and 24 valve engines had sevral holes in the tip of the injector to atomized the fuel.
 
I have been reading about the Duramax on The Diesel Page for about 3 years and about the Cummins on the Turbo Diesel Register for about two years. Each site is visited daily. I have little interest in Ford because it doesn't really meet my needs so I only occasionally read about the new Powerstroke.



The durability of fuel injectors seems to be a troubling question and perhaps a real concern to some of us who currently own or are considering the purchase of a new diesel with the latest High Pressure Common Rail fuel injection system. GM is already into their third or fourth generation of injectors and from what I read on the various sites, Ford is also into their third or fourth generation of injectors for the new Powerstroke. We shouldn't be a bit surprised if Cummins also goes through these birthing pains with this new and better technology.



I have no idea what the problems have been with the injectors on the new Powerstroke but I will interpret what I have read on The DieselPage about the few injector problems on the Duramax. Much of this information, I am certain, will be very helpful to Cummins owners. For about the last three years some very bright and technically certified persons have been researching an apparent "injector problem" with some (not many) of the Duramax Diesel engines. Here is my summary what they have found: Most of the Duramax engines have no injector problems at all. Many of those with injector problems have been studied very carefully to determine the cause of the problem. After looking at the tips of the "defective" injectors under an electron microscope they noticed that very few of the injectors were clogged with pieces of rust or other debris. Most of the "defective" injectors had their tips eroded by what appears to be a "sand blasted" condition. Further study showed that this sand blasted erosion is caused by 5 micron to 10 micron sized particulate matter in the fuel. Each minute, millions of these microscopically small particles of debris are blasted through the injectors under very high pressure. The "sand blasting" effect of these small particles is actually wearing away the tips of the injectors, thereby causing defective operation. The first couple of injector designs were not that great. However, the latest generation of injector appears to be very reliable and what some would consider to be an "injector problem" now appears to be really a "fuel problem".



None of this research is 100% conclusive but all studies so far seem to point to fuel quality as being the cause of the "injector problem" in these HPCR injection systems. If dirty fuel is causing the problem, there would seem to be three ways to solve the problem: 1) clean up all the diesel fuel in all the stations which sell diesel fuel. This is obviously not a practical solution so the next best solution is to purchase your fuel from a reputable dealer or at least one that sells lots of fuel. You would be horrified at the amount of dirt, algae and water in the diesel fuel pumped at some stations; 2) Install a better fuel filter. The current thought is that if one could install a fuel filter which is guaranteed to filter out all particulate down to the 2 micron range the "sand blasted" effect would be reduced and possibly eliminated. Fuel analysis, pre and post filtration have been conducted to determine the effectiveness of the fuel filters. It was learned that just because a fuel filter has a 2 micron rating does not mean that it will filter out 100% of all particulate down to 2 microns in size. Fuel filters of the same rating from different manufacturers do vary in their effectiveness at filtering fuel. Fuel filters have been cut in half to determine where water and debris are being trapped within the filter. It was thought this process might lead to a better filter design. Some owners are currently looking at installing a secondary fuel filter to help solve the particulate problem. However, fears of reduced fuel flow and reduced fuel pressure are causing people to move slowly in this direction; 3) Develop a material hard enough to withstand the "sand blasting" effect of these microscopic particles of debris and use this material to manufacture the tips of the injectors. This might be practically impossible and would definitely make an already very expensive injector even more so.



The big three auto manufacturers will do more research into the effects of diesel fuel quality on the performance of these newest HPCR fuel injection systems. Until their results are conclusive, it seems that we all need to proceed slowly and let's not start seeing problems where there might not be any. Continue to be aware of where we purchase fuel and change filters regularly. Like all new technologies this HPCR system will have growing pains. In my opinion "injector problems", if there are any, will be history within the foreseeable future (next year or two). Manufacturers also want this newer technology to be huge success. They have too much invested to allow failure.



If you still have a lot if interest in the "injector durability" issue, I would encourage you to put aside brand loyalties for a moment and read about this topic with an open mind at the Duramax site. Both the TDR and The Diesel Page have serious people who really want to solve problems, help each other, and advance the diesel technology.



Here is a link which discusses the importance of clean fuel on the performance of diesel injectors. While this article does not deal with the specific needs of the new High Pressure Common Rail systems, it does address the needs of lower pressure diesel injection systems. It would seem that the importance of fuel cleanliness in the newer high pressure systems is even more important than what is mentioned in this well written article.



http://www.fleetwatch.co.za/supplements/SADiesel/DieselDirtS.htm



Best Wishes,



John_M
 
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Maybe we are jumping to conclusions here. The engine has been in service in Europe for several years and I have not heard of any unusual problems with the injection system.



Casey
 
Does anyone know what effect "asphalites" in the fuel has on the injector?? I assume that this is really really small globs of tar-like substances that float around in the fuel and sometimes may be kinda hard and chunky.
 
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