Fuel Injector Summary

[LWells]

Hoping to summarize your opinions on injectors – just had one fail (it appears) so it’s time to decide the way forward. I’ve looked back at the threads, though it is tough to uncover all the info since “injector” is mentioned in so many different circumstances. Here goes:

1) Should I be worried that I have some ongoing problem having now lost two injectors – one at 90k, one at 106k miles? My truck is bone stock since 20K, it had a moderate tune and a pressure puck at 20k when I bought it – I stripped down to pure stock immediately – no hard pulling either. Great thread history suggests this is early but not unusual?

2) How hard is it to do this myself? I’m generally handy, done plenty of “bolt on/off” work on a number of vehicles, but I am no mechanic, haven’t played with fuel injection, and I don’t have any special fuel injection performance measuring/adjusting tools. Service manual procedure sounds easy enough. But I’d hate to find out it’s really hard if you have never done it before, or don’t have a lot of fuel system tools and experience. Or worse – that you could easily do serious damage with an east to do rookie error.

3) Now the biggie – which injectors? I don’t want to try and get you active folks to agree, just want to make sure I understand your opinions. When I dropped an injector on the road, Cerberusiam, Big Papa, and a few others were really helpful with advice. Reading the threads I see Cerb, TCDiesel, and even Matt from BBI have had a good discussion. Do I have the following right:

a. Consensus among most (not all) is Bosch remanufactured injectors are not a great choice (but get ‘em from Geno’s if you go that route).

b. Brand new, stock performance, Bosch Injectors – are available, however it seems like there are many false choices out there that either still have used bodies, are new but not stock specs, or have other issues. In particular Bosch Motorsports are poor choices (universal agreement). Cerb says true new ones are easily obtainable from Injectors Direct, and TC sells these himself. Correct? (This seems to be the most critical question – supplier for truly virgin Bosch stock performance).

c. BBI injectors - Matt gives a good pitch for his product, TC and Cerb disagree a bit; with Cerb saying Bosch new are good but BBI are better (Ozymandias and JDoremire here too I believe), and TC holding Bosch new as best. Correct?

i. Question on BBI – with the 0.5 set (closest to stock?), it is still providing more fuel than stock, so the tradespace must be: Performance, fuel mileage, emissions, and engine life. BBI’s are providing increased performance at the expense of which of the others? – Assuming I’m not going to “balance” this trade by adding some special tuning.

That’s a lot of questions, sorry, but you’re help is greatly appreciated.

 

[jgillott]

Do you have any type of auxiliary fuel filter in place in addition to the factory filter? One of the best things you can do for injector life is to add a 2 micron filter somewhere in line before the CP3.

I have my auxiliary filter placed between the factory housing and the CP3. 600K combined between our 2 3rd gen 5.9's, all on original injectors using this setup. (Probably just jinxed myself )

 

[Ozymandias]

Do you have any type of auxiliary fuel filter in place in addition to the factory filter? One of the best things you can do for injector life is to add a 2 micron filter somewhere in line before the CP3.

I have my auxiliary filter placed between the factory housing and the CP3. 600K combined between our 2 3rd gen 5.9's, all on original injectors using this setup. (Probably just jinxed myself )

I did my 2m Filter prior the the OEM Filter, so this is my last defense.
And I can mess around with pumps, filters and lines without concerns for the CP and injectors.

 

[jgillott]

I did my 2m Filter prior the the OEM Filter, so this is my last defense.
And I can mess around with pumps, filters and lines without concerns for the CP and injectors.

We had long discussions back when we started adding these aux filters years ago on the proper location for them. When it comes down to it, it really doesn't matter where they are placed as long as they are added to the system. The factory filter was never good enough to protect the injectors and was certainly a trouble spot in the design. I chose to add my aux after the factory filter simply because I like the idea of stepping down my filtration larger to smaller. In reality, there is no right or wrong way as long as the fuel going in to that CP3 is properly filtered.

 

[CVR222NV]

I'll be following this thread as I see injectors in my future as I'm at 188,000 miles on the original set although I have been running the 2 micron filter between the stock filter and CP3 since 136,000 miles. I will also add that my truck is going in for a new clutch install (SBC SDD3250-GK-ORG) this week as the throwout bearing is making noise and I plan on adding EFI Live for tuning (an additional discussion) after the clutch install. From what I see the above additions will max horse power at around 500 hp (which I believe is way more that I need) and I understand my G-56 transmission is only rated for around 400 hp. After all the threads I have read on injectors I like the BBI injectors but can't decide between Stage 1 and Stage .5. Below is off the BBI website. The BBI website does not have any horse power ratings for Stage .5. I want more power but also fuel mileage and dependability so the Stage .5 sound good but will it get me close to 400 hp?

Dodge Ram MY4.5 05.2004 – 06.2007 | Stage 1:

Originally these injectors have a flow rate of 61,8 l/h @ a pressure of 100bar.
Our MY4.5 Stage 1 injectors use a nozzle flow rate of 76,2 l/h/100bar -->24% increase compared to stock
For model years 2004-2007 we utilize a 124° spray angle

These injectors are capable of up to 700rwhp. Injection quantity reduction is a simple adjustment, thanks to aftermarket tuners. Decrease fuel quantity to satisfy the needs of your current set up, or crank it up to 700 RWHP.

Dodge Ram 05.2004 – 06.2007 | Stage 0.5:

Originally these injectors have a flow rate of 61,8 l/h @ a pressure of 100bar.
Our MY4.5 Stage 0.5 injectors use the same nozzle flow as our stage 1 injectors use. (nozzle flow rate of 76,2 l/h/100bar -->24% increase compared to stock)
For model years 2004-2007 we utilize a 124° spray angle

They are detuned to lower emissions and exhaust gas temperatures. An increase in fuel economy will be noticed as they have a shorter injection duration, with the same energizing time as the OEM injectors. This makes the Stage 0.5 a perfect towing injector.

To better understand the injection quantity increase, below are the values for the full load injection quantity @1600bar/1700µs:

OEM: ~130mm³
Stage 0.5: ~149mm³
Stage 1: ~163mm³

 

[cerberusiam]

The BBI .5's are the best trade-off for performance and efficacy there is, IMO. Yes, they flow a little more fuel but that is at FULL load. At partial loads they are capable of flowing more fuel but that does not mean they have to. One cannot look at just flow numbers as the CR fuel is dynamic and constantly adjusting to conditions, in plain language that means that an injector that does a better job of injecting the fuel charge (shape, atomization, consistency, etc) it will likely use less fuel to achieve the same power as a less efficient injector.

Good clean 450 HP with a stock injector and tuning is easily doable, the .5's fit right in there very well for a working truck.

If one is looking to optimize power and efficiency then I highly recommend a tuner for best results. The stock tunes are for emissions and save the parts, not always towards what is an optional usage result. I would also suggest if you do buy injectors go with the 143 degree spray pattern not the 124.

 

[Sled Dog]

The BBI .5's are the best trade-off for performance and efficacy there is, IMO. Yes, they flow a little more fuel but that is at FULL load. At partial loads they are capable of flowing more fuel but that does not mean they have to. One cannot look at just flow numbers as the CR fuel is dynamic and constantly adjusting to conditions, in plain language that means that an injector that does a better job of injecting the fuel charge (shape, atomization, consistency, etc) it will likely use less fuel to achieve the same power as a less efficient injector.

Good clean 450 HP with a stock injector and tuning is easily doable, the .5's fit right in there very well for a working truck.

If one is looking to optimize power and efficiency then I highly recommend a tuner for best results. The stock tunes are for emissions and save the parts, not always towards what is an optional usage result. I would also suggest if you do buy injectors go with the 143 degree spray pattern not the 124.

What additional benefit do you get at 143 degrees?
Just asking.

 

[LWells]

jg those are impressive results. I was going to get to the filtering questions after sorting through injectors, but since you asked... I have only stock filtration. One thing I was always suspicious about is I never see water when I drain the stock filter before changing. On my First Gen I would always see a little water come out when draining at annual filter change. But - I am worried about extra filtration adding to pump stress (one, both) and thus needing to upgrade the lift pump.

Back to the injectors: Cerb, good words on injector behavior, understand your points on better functioning injector doing a more efficient job. Could that also mean the .5's, while being "higher performance" than stock may not sacrifice system life? I am really not trying to prioritize mileage, but mine isn't fantastic so I don't want to loose more - If I got added performance with poorer emissions, negligible mileage loss and NO increased engine/fuel system wear, I'd be happy (I'd be happy winning the lottery too). I really want the truck to last as long as possible with the least maintenance. I don't think I ever put a FULL load on it since I don't tow, the BBI .5's say "perfect towing injector" as CVR posted, so what do I get out of it? If I get more power available will I put my foot into it - absolutely! So perhaps any mileage loss would be completely my fault - and I couldn't help myself - which doesn't rule it out. Mostly I don't want to sacrifice longevity, but not trying to "de-tune" for longevity either.

I was also going to get around to asking for recommendations on tuning - but I am trying to keep this project from snowballing. Having my daily driver down with a big repair bill - even if i do it myself - is disheartening. So I'd like to pick an injector, see if I can install them myself, then come back and address extra filtering and tuning. Given all that Cerb (& others), you still think the BBIs are best trade? Interested in the 124/143 answer as well.

Thanks all - great info

 

[jgillott]

jg those are impressive results. I was going to get to the filtering questions after sorting through injectors, but since you asked... I have only stock filtration. One thing I was always suspicious about is I never see water when I drain the stock filter before changing. On my First Gen I would always see a little water come out when draining at annual filter change. But - I am worried about extra filtration adding to pump stress (one, both) and thus needing to upgrade the lift pump.

I can't speak about supporting increased power levels. But stock, the factory in tank lift pump has absolutely no issue supplying fuel through the factory and aux filters. I've been running that way for hundreds of thousands of miles without issues.

 

[CVR222NV]

The BBI .5's are the best trade-off for performance and efficacy there is, IMO. Yes, they flow a little more fuel but that is at FULL load. At partial loads they are capable of flowing more fuel but that does not mean they have to. One cannot look at just flow numbers as the CR fuel is dynamic and constantly adjusting to conditions, in plain language that means that an injector that does a better job of injecting the fuel charge (shape, atomization, consistency, etc) it will likely use less fuel to achieve the same power as a less efficient injector.

Good clean 450 HP with a stock injector and tuning is easily doable, the .5's fit right in there very well for a working truck.

If one is looking to optimize power and efficiency then I highly recommend a tuner for best results. The stock tunes are for emissions and save the parts, not always towards what is an optional usage result. I would also suggest if you do buy injectors go with the 143 degree spray pattern not the 124.

Cerb, Can you elaborate on the 143 v 124 degree angle? What does that get me as far as performance, mileage, dependability? I don't see that as an option on the BBI website. Is that a special order request for the Stage .5? Thanks, Mike

 

[cerberusiam]

It probably isn't an option on the web site but if you contact them and request it they can set them up. You would want to do that anyway as the setup on the injector could be different between the early and late engines. How much they can compensate for the timing differences would be an interesting discussion with Martin.

Compared to stock the 143 gives you 8 smaller holes with a broader pattern. Better atomization and a better distribution of fuel in the plume because it isn't 5 holes at a steeper angle and using the deep bowl to spread it out. Just efficacy of the injection event seems to make a difference, then, tuning is easier to to get clean power because the injection pattern is flatter and tends to cover more area consistently.

If you aren't cranking up the pressures and extending the duration to make the power there can be little effect on the HPCR system as a whole for longevity. You lose more longevity by not running an additive package, not doing extra filtration, and not being picky about where you buy fuel than you would ever see by using .5's, or even the Stage I's. If you never push the max capability of the injector and stress the system as whole there can be no effect on the system as a whole.

To be fair, you have to drive a change the SAME way as you did before. If you feels stronger one is naturally inclined to play more and you would likely see a mpg drop compared to before, it is called the fun factor.

There is a step by step instruction posted on here to change injectors, it really is not that hard if you are just a little mechanically inclined. Having the right tools, a little pre-study of the steps will make it go smoother. Also, of you spend 15-20 minutes removing a few more pieces in will save you that and more in the process of install and TQing. I pull the rail, intake horn, grid heater, rear lifting bracket to start. You have much more room to work and actually see what is happening. If you start on #1 by the time you get to #6 where you have to work by feel you know what to expect.

As for tools, injector puller is nice if you have some stuck in the bore. Usually do not need it but have had a couple hung hard enough the puller made a difference. The cross over tube puller is a must have if you only want buy a minimum of tools. The former and a top side creeper are the only real must have purchases to make it better.

 

[LWells]

Cerb, thanks. If longevity effects are in the realm of those things you mention then that's great - fantastic analogy. To extrapolate - I assume one thing you are implying is that if later I decide to get a tuner and play I have some injectors that will deliver more power already installed, as compared to virgin BOSCH? And also if I read this and your other posts I am assuming you feel the extra dollars of BBI over Virgin BOSCH (looks about $1600 difference) is primarily worth it because tighter manufacturing tolerances result in more even fueling from cylinder to cylinder and thus a smoother engine and longer lasting truck at whatever power level is dialed in - that a fair synopsis? Covering more area with the 143s sounds sensible - any worries about the injector holes being even smaller and more prone to problems?

I never did find the instructions here but I watched a few youtubes and your right - other than access it doesn't look too bad, though I haven't seen anyone pull and replace #6 - man I miss my first-gen where the last two cylinders were not under the dashboard. Thanks for the advice that more disassembly is worth it - it's always a guess the first time and discovering that during the job is a real time eater. I hadn't realized the exhaust rockers come off so lash has to be set - I haven't done that before - easy enough?

Appreciate the special tool advice and thanks for giving me an excuse for a top side creeper.

Since it is #1 that went bad - finally pulled the cover off and measured it today; open circuit on the injector - it is awfully tempting to just do that one and be done - but that has to be a bad idea right (assuming I can afford the whole 6). I do want to make it to Indiana in June for the rally.

 

[Mark31]

LWells, my mechanical opinion and $1.25 will get you a cheap cup of coffee. School of hard knocks has convinced me, though, to only make one change at a time, so if something ain't right, I don't have to make a guess which change (or even a combination of changes) is the culprit. Consider getting your filtration mods done first and run some before doing injectors. That way if some contaminant got in the lines when working on them, it would harm an old injector. Also, and probably the main thing, the new injectors would never get a sip of fuel that hadn't been through a finer filter.

 

[cerberusiam]

Pretty much yes to all those assumptions and interpretation. If you add filtration, buy clean fuel and run an additive package the smaller orifices are not really an issue.

Exhaust rockers come off but you do not have to set lash after wards, you are removing the mounting bolt not the adjuster. Good time to run the rack on it if you haven't though. Just change out injectors on exhaust rockers that are loose on each rotation.

You can make a good clean 400-450 HP with stock injectors, you can make it smoother and quieter with BBI's. If that is worth the difference to you and you can afford it then it is money well spent.

#6 is a bugger because you have to go thru the crash bracket to get to the adjuster nut and that requires you get enough pieces out of the way and the harness loose. There is enough room to get a deep well socket on the tube hold down nut to remove it and TQ it correctly by going thru the crash bracket. It is tight but you have enough room to work a TQ wrench in there.

You have to use a wrench on the tube hold down nut to remove\install the rial lines. If you do not you will mess up the TQ on them or break a line under the nut. When you loosen them watch for twist are they tend to grow to the nut and if you twist the line to much it will break at some point, usually at an in opportune time. If it you have to twist it too much to get it loose save yourself some grief and just get a new one. If #4 hasn't been replaced do it anyway as it the usual failure point.

It takes extra time but I not working on commission so I clean each cross over tube bore with a bore brush and verify I can hand tighten the cross over tube nut. A small drop of light oil on threads at install helps make sure TQ is correct. When you tight the rail lines down at both ends make sure that lines is as square as possible with fitting when you final tighten it. I have cured leaks in lines by just loosening, aligning, and re tightening.

The reason I call out some of these thing sis I made those mistakes then had to chase them down. I had to short all of them at times to get something done in a hurry both in the shop and on the road. Even used the infamous "calibrated elbow" to set TQ, but, I do not ever advise doing that.

 

[sag2]

Here is the link to the instructions.

Adding to what Cerb said, a flex head 3/8 torque wrench really helps on the back couple if you want to torque the connector tube perfectly. They are expensive but really nice to have. Also get a 24mm 3/8 socket to fit the torque wrench. Most inexpensive socket sets will not go that big in 3/8 drive.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/injector-install-procedure-with-photos.148621/

 

[LWells]

Thanks again for all the info folks - I've gone from dreading this to looking forward to it.

Mark - you make a good point. Given that the truck is down now, I could buy 6 injectors, replace the one bad one, fire it up make sure everything works, then add new filtration and run it, then replace the last five. Puts only one new injector at risk from the filtration project. Not sure if I can be that disciplined but it's worth considering. I'll certainly wish I had if something comes up wrong.

Cerb - really appreciate the added detail - very, very helpful. Forgive my ignorance but a followup question on the rockers. When you say "run the rack" I assume that's slang for setting the lash. And I think you are telling me that if I rotate the engine (barring tool) so that each exhaust rocker I remove is in the relaxed position then no lash to set - but if it is under tension then I won't be able to reliably reinstall it exactly to the same clearance. But essentially your saying I ought to do the lash since I'm there and have enough miles (106k), but I don't have to if I rotate the engine as described?

Cerb to your point about stock injectors, I want to go back to one unanswered question since my part-ordering time is fast approaching. If I decide to save the money and forgo the benefits of BBI's, you're confident I can get virgin new Bosch stock injectors form Injectors Direct (or elsewhere)? Nothing re-used or re-manned about them?

sag - really appreciate your added tool tips and the great instruction steps you wrote in the old post (and Joe Donnelly's too). Like I said, I am going to enjoy learning how to do this now that you all have generously shared your knowledge.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yes, a lot of places carry the NEW Bosch injectors that are not remans. A new injector will have 3 sets of numbers on the top of the solenoid, 3 of which will the last 3 digits of the current Bosch CR part number, 238. If you verify that # it is almost a sure thing that is a new injector. If you do not find that number on the top of the solenoids then be suspicious.

Injectors Direct, Engineered Diesel Diesel Auto Power, even Pensacola Diesel all carry the new injectors and list them on the web site. As always though buyer beware and check when you get them. There is no telling what the minions in shopping actually do when they package the shipment, mistakes can happen.

You are at the point where setting the valve lash is not going to hurt anything and since you have to remove the rocker might as well work the valve lash setting into the process.

 

[Ozymandias]

The #6 Crash bracket comes out fairly easy if one knows the knack.
I posted a pic some time ago how to loosen that 2 screws at the back of the engine.

Does one know which thread that was?

 

[TCDiesel]

New Bosch (Virgrin) is no different in quality than Bosch Recon (Verify its Bosch fingerprinted) Only price, I can play a tune and I can make Injector print outs show what I want.

Bosch has now authorized certain rebuilder to certify to Bosch Standards, This new program DOES not have My blessing at current.

Also I do not recommend doing valve settings at injector Installing, I have lost count on how many problems this has created for 1st time installers. Make sure the Engine is running good with New Injectors than go back and do Your Valve Adjustments.

1st time Installers may fine the matting of the cross tubes need to be Re-TQ if pressure problems develop, now is a good time do your valve checking/Adjusting.

The Cross tube China imposer are everywhere, Re-use your tubes (OEM) if no anomalies, the industry is so contaminated with China junk, we ignore the forum rules concerning non-sponsors despite being warned in the past.

 

[Tuesdak]

Pensacola Diesel has such a bad reputation why does anyone bother to even mention them? They can't even get antique 30 year old 6.5 diesel stuff done correctly.

@LWells
The biggest difference between OEM "Virgin NEW" and BBi hasn't been mentioned and that's the nozzle design used. Best I can tell (BBi) uses a more reliable design than the OEM 'for emissions' design.

Do compare warranties for parts and labor as they can have different time limits.

The BBi Stage 1 injectors require a "tune" to pass emissions. The person who tuned my 5.9 likes the stage 1's as they are easier to tune the smoke out of the exhaust. Stage 0.5's have some results of passed snap emissions tests on stock tunes. It's another grand on top of injector purchase to add a Smarty and a custom tune.

OEM injectors are VCO, valve covering orifice, which means the pintle valve inside the nozzle must seal every injector nozzle orifice simultaneously. The pintle valve must seal all 7 injector orifices. If any one leaks by, you get white or blue smoke because the 1 valve must seal 7 separate orifices perfectly at pressures up to 23,200 psi. SAC design means there is one sealing surface, a small sac or chamber, and then the orifices are fed from that small chamber or sac. It's a superior sealing design in the fact there is only 1 sealing point that is designed specifically to seal high pressures vs the individual sealing surfaces of a vco just being a flat face sealing surface. SAC Emissions are worse due to the fuel left in the chamber.