Getrag vs NV4500

[JBurghard]

It is a transfer case that Dodge, Chevy, and Ford have all used at sometime... .

 

[RSchwarzli]

Seems my memory is failing me again, or my brain really is leaking out my ear. I guess that's what happens when you get to my age (ripe old age of 18). I seem to remember someone was looking for a Ram with the NV 4500 already in it. Can't remember if it was this thread but I will leave it here since we are on the subject. There is one for sale at www.autotrader.com. It is a 1991 W350 Reg Cab, 4X4, CTD, Ac, PDL, PW, PM, tilt, CD, tow pkg,... The fellow wanted $8500. The fellow is located in OR. Hope this is helpful.



Robert (Diesel Head Junior)



"If you can't DODGE it, RAM it!!!

 

[OnlyCummins]

Originally posted by JBurghard

... cut... The owners manual says the getrag ... never needs servicing. ... cut...

My '92 FSM indicates that drain & refill intervals for the Getrag should be:



Normal Service

--Light Duty Cycle = 37,500 miles

--Heavy Duty Cycle = 36,000 miles



Severe Service

-- 18,000 miles



Where severe service is defined as:

--Extended operation with heavy cargo loads.

--Driving in deep mud or snow.

--Off-road operation (4WD).

--Trailer towing.

--Operation as a commercial vehicle.

--Snow plowing.



FWIW, I almost always do fluid & filter changes on the severe service schedule, figuring that fluids & filters are a lot cheaper than components.

 

[MAX A/C]

James- Re: your question on using gear oil instead of the factory-recommended motor oil.



You don't want to do that. The thing was built/engineered to use 5w-30. That oil will flow easier/better around the gears than 80-90W. Stick to the viscosity recommended by the engineers.



New cars are calling for really light weight oils compared to 10-20 years ago. The newer cars are using 5W-20 oil.



Scott

 

[914x4ctd]

Hey 1stgen4evr,

np 203 is a full time t-case that was used in the '70's in Dodge, Chevy, and Ford. It offered full time 4x with hi and low ranges. Could also be converted to part time if desired. Chain driven with a kind of separate gearbox for the hi and low. All of the first gen diesels came with np 205 which is a part time unit with all gear construction. Looks somewhat similar to np 203.

 

[914x4ctd]

Last month I swapped out the good old getrag for a new nv4500. I like the nv4500 better not only because it has no problems but the shifter placement and shorter throw is a lot nicer than that long throw of the getrag. I got the nv4500 kit form advanceadapters. The kit had everything that I needed for the conversion. This kit also included a new, not rebuilt but new nv4500. The guys at advance adapters were a big help.

http://advanceadapters.com/

 

[JApplegate]

been there

i bought a 93 dodge off a friend of mine and he pulled a 5th wheel 2 horse trailer with it for about 10 years then the getrag gave out and he sold it to me for $2500. started getting parts for the getrag (thought it was a good trans. then i found this site) they were very expensive and when i found the case was worn down and my friend had to cut the bottom gear in half to get the shaft out.



i'm getting a nv4500 do i have to get a HD? but to answer your question save money up to replace it and set a time and when that time comes replace it ... ... i got 10 years and about 250 000 miles out of my getrag after that you are pushing your luck.

 

[JApplegate]

but with proper care and feeding they are fine - and cheap to fix. There sure is going to be a lot of crying here when someone burns up a 4500!



Andy [/B][/QUOTE]





i tell u the only palce i find parts for my getrag was the dodge delier and he wasn't sheap. i don't know what NV4500 part's prices run at but $900 for the imput shaft, over $1500 for the bottom gear, $2100 for a rebuilt kite that's see... hmmmm that $4500 i could have bought a new trans. for that price ... ... i'm not changing my mind i'm still getting the NV4500 (i'm not starting fights... . that's the last thing i need to do )

 

[Paychk]

http://www.drivetrain.com/getrag5speed.html

http://www.mantrans.com/

http://www.blumenthalmfg.com/products.html

http://www.arielgears.com/onlinecat.pdf



Standard Transmission has:



input shaft $145

cluster gear (bottom gear) $260

rebuild kit w/ synchro's $238. 75



there are others, also ebay



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33733&item=2447964832



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33733&item=2447964854

 

[1stgen4evr]

There are parts available at reasonable prices for these transmissions. Just not from Dodge. Because they have not been in trucks "for years" as some of the other types have, they don't show up at a lot of rebuild shops. I have bought parts in Atlanta and Tallahassee at reasonable prices. I have some new and used parts myself. I have been in discussions with a number of different users and rebuilders and the general opinion is that these trannys fail at the bearing between the input shaft and the output shaft more times than not. There are failures also in the bearings on the countershaft (layshaft). I plan to build a fwd transmission for a friend who will use the truck to pull loaded trailers from the field to the mill. Overloaded and soft ground. I think that it will get tested right well.



The failure of the (I call it the pocket bearing) bearing between the input and output shaft will often damage the bearing land on the output shaft. The shaft can be "retiped". Mine has and it has subsequently run 250K since repair. Because the race for the pocket bearing is made into the input shaft and is not a seperate part, the input shaft must be replaced as well. That is an engineering weakness but as the shaft gets some accelerated wear at the clutch splines, it is a good bet to replace it anyway if you plan to run the truck a long time. Wear at that point can even negatively affect clutch operation.



Depending on circumstance, failure of the countershaft bearings can result in a wipeout of the front gear on the countershaft or sometimes just a sudden loss of mesh between the input and countershaft. I have not as yet worked on a failure of this type but will in the near future as I will be rebuilding a transmission that was replaced by a fellow TDR member from Maine.



I would be interested to hear PM from anyone who has worked on these trannys if any information can be offered.



I will comment again on the 85aw gear lube. I elected to go to the heavier lube knowing that it might be trouble for the pocket bearing but making the change relative to wear that I could notice on the 5th gear set. The wear seemed to be failure of metal to metal seperation on the 5th gear set. (High heat that others report) This results from the inadequate film strength of the low viscosity oils. I don't recomend it to anyone as I can certainly not offer any guarantees. I simply state that I have run up the mileage from 125K to 385K with very satisfactory result. I pull in overdrive as long as the rpms hold up. I have no horsepower mods to increase load on the transmission. I have no meters to monitor temperature on the transmission but I will be installing some soon for test purposes.



As I stated in another post, the pocket bearing failure that required my repair at 125K was from having the truck towed (less than 15 miles) so I can't comment as to operating conditions that might cause the failure in service.



I think that a possible way to check the countershaft bearings would be this. (With the engine stopped of course). Remove the side cover on the transmission and with a soft bar, check to see if there is any front to aft movement in the shaft. The bearing setup on this shaft is operated in a preloaded condition and there should be no detectable movement front to aft.



Should there be movement, the slack can be removed by pulling the transfer case/rear bearing cover and shiming the bearings for proper end play. I don't recomend this to a novice or uninformed mechanic or owner. Find a GOOD shop.



If the slack is considerable, the bearings are probably near failure and should likely be replaced. Again this is not a dreadfully expensive operation if it is done before catastrophic failure. Depending on further comment will offer more as I can but this is long enough for now.



Check the posts at Past 100K miles. There is a comment about a rebuilt tag that would seem to infer that the transmission has been worked on in that truck. My transmission has a rebuilt tag on the side and I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT CAME IN THE NEW TRUCK. Oh well, it did run the 100K that Dodge guaranteed. It seems Dodge knew there were problems with these trannys and didn't work out the bugs.



Incidently, I don't view Dodge as the devil. They did bring us the CTD. Ford or Chevy could have done the same thing and didn't.



1stgen4evr

James

 

[914x4ctd]

JApplegate,

Yes you will need a nv4500hd. The difference is our diesels have a large 1 1/4" input shaft. The standard nv4500 has 1 1/8" input shaft used in gas trucks.

 

[1stgen4evr]

I have partially disassembled the fwd getrag. It failed at the front countershaft bearing. This allowed the countershaft to drop out of mesh with the inputshaft. In this case, the gears were not damaged. If the bearing went more slowly, the gears would most likely be wiped out. The pocket bearing and input shaft show no problem. All the gears are suitable to reuse. I will replace the syncro rings on the 3 - 4 shift.



I think that it will require some special tools or some fabricated homemade tools to pull the bearings on the countershaft and till that is accomplished, the countershaft will not come out of the case. I won't cut the countershaft till I have exhausted every other possibility.



What I see makes me believe that slightly larger bearings on the countershaft and a solid spacer at the rear bearing would beef up the box somewhat. Clearly had the bearing not failed on this unit, it would still be on the road.



Still, if you are toteing a really big bomb, you need a bigger transmission.



Don't forget the membership drive. I have yet to encounter a fellow TDR on the road.



1stgen4evr

James

 

[AMikonis]

Great post(s) on the Getrag, James. To be more specific, on the six trucks I mentioned in the 100K thread, I have seen these failures in those Getrags over the last 10 years of mainly commercial duty:



1 countershaft bearing

1 sheared input shaft

2 second gear synchros

1 mainshaft rear bearing



Another one is parked right now, sounds like another mainshaft bearing, but we haven't torn it down yet.



Interestingly, I have read about the pocket bearing failures, but haven't seen any unusual wear in the four I actually worked on.



Andy

 

[1stgen4evr]

Thanks Andy



I am as I said, "particularly interested in the Getrag debate". While I completely agree with the change to a heavier box for those applications that have boosted horsepower and larger tires, for the folks like myself who are running pretty much stock trucks, I am more convinced that we can run the Getrag with much success. The more we know, the longer we can run them. I am gaining more than I am giving in this forum. I intend to share whatever I find as the project goes forward.



I plan to assemble a Getrag with larger bearings on the countershaft. I have not investigated this to any degree but there would most likely have to be mods on the case to accomodate the larger bearings. Looking at the outer race on the mainshaft and input shaft, I wonder if the Getrag may have been design as an aluminum case box. Mack trucks used really thick outer races on the trannys that had aluminun cases. At any rate, this will be an involved project and I cannot say when I can post any result.



I will be going forward with the box I am currently building and I will post result as to getting the countershaft out. The failed front bearing is going to pose some difficulty I am sure. If the inner race were intact, I think that I could grip it and use something like a snatch hammer to pull it from the bearing land. Most likely this will require some special adapter to grasp the damaged end. I have machine shop and welding equipment to help with that. A dremel tool may be part of the soultion.



Any additional info on the repairs that you mention would be useful. You may not have seen the inside of those boxes but if you know who did, see what you can find out.



Thank to all

James

1stgen4evr



Get a first gen while you can. They ain't making them any more. You might want to get a spare.