Getting "The Best Deal"

[Archive]

As a small business owner who's made a living doing residential remodeling for over twenty years, I think I have worked with every sort of customer, and been exposed to my share of "bargain hunters. "

People who make a living in residential construction (and remodelers in particular) know that there are a fair number of folks who will call you for "estimates," when all they really want to do is pick your brain for a couple of hours, then do the project themselves. This sort of customer regards the contractor sitting in his living room as sort of a "research tool," and gives no thought to the fact that this is, for the contractor, a sales trip -- it's costing the contractor time/money to make his presentation. Many customers must believe that these are "professional estimators," who get paid for burning up fuel, driving around in circles all day long, giving out "free advice. "

Since I've been on the "receiving end" of this sort of treatment, and recognize that most small business owners have at one time or another, I've developed a buying/shopping philosophy that is maybe a little different from those who've never owned their own business.

First, "getting the best, dirt-cheap price," isn't my number one priority; I want a good price, sure, but I think it's more important to have a relationship with somebody I trust when making purchasing decisions.

Since participating in the TDR forums I've read lots of posts dealing with the cost of products -- who can get the best deal on the latest gimmick -- but far fewer testimonials about the fellow TDR members (and small startup business owners) who, in addition to offering a product for sale at a fair price, helped them out with advice, pointers, and timely problem-solving -- in a word: "Service. "

We've all heard the stories about warehouse pricing of this item or that -- say a 4" exhaust system -- that sells for $450, instead of a TDR member (and advertiser's) $625 system. The likelihood is that the two systems are virtually identical, but the TDR guy has spent a lot of time selecting the components, getting the best deal on a cool sounding muffler, establishing a solid relationship with fellow members for integrity and service... He drives a Dodge/Cummins truck, shares your enthusiasms, attends the same events (TDR sponsored), and devotes a lot of energy and time to developing and bringing creative new stuff to the TDR marketplace. "Fast Eddie's Exhaust Warehouse" (Featuring Truckload Pricing!!) may be out of business tomorrow, but the salesman you ordered from will DEFINITELY not be sharing barbecue and swapping lies with you at the next TDR "May Madness" event. He couldn't care less about your after-the-fact experience with the product you just bought.

Don't get me wrong; this isn't about moralizing. There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to get a good deal on the products we buy. I guess I'm just arguing for "balance" in our buying decisions and discussions, and for a realization that "price" isn't everything.

Thanks for your patience. #ad




------------------
97 2500 4x4, club cab, auto, 3. 54 limited slip, JRE 4" exhaust, Dr. Performance Fuel system (370 HP), "Twister Turbo," Geno's guages -- Boost, EGT, transmission & Rear -- MAG Hytec covers, SunCoast Converter/Transgo shift kit, Brite Box, tons o'chrome under hood, Prime Loc, EZ Drain, Seat covers, wood dash, Rancho Suspension, Warn M12000 Winch on Warn Brush Guard, Warn driving and fog lights, Hella twin back up lights, 285/75/R16 B. F. G. ATs on Mickey Thompson "Classic" rims; Linex bed liner, BD exhaust brake, Optima, "Red-top" batteries. Northwest Custom mudflaps, front/rear, and stainless rocker panels.

 

[Archive]

Thank you Sasquatch, Finally a common sense approach to parts purchasing!

And Rob your points are well taken too! I always try to by commodity products at the lowest price.

------------------
01 Dodge Ram 4X4 QC

[This message has been edited by Bob Wagner (edited 10-24-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

Sasquautch... I would certainly agree with you when there is a portion of the purchase that covers workmanship or craftmanship. But I would have to disagree when it is a manufactured product from the same company that is just being resold by several other companies at several different prices.
I do understand overhead, etc, and what a pain the tax forms and records are... but...

let's take oil filters for example... You can buy them from Dodge(highest) and get to know your service dept, etc(this has some merit), or you can buy them from Cummins(fun to talk to) or you can buy them from Genos(a tdr member) or at your local auto parts store(friend). I would certainly buy them from the cheapest supplier(or most convenient at the time of need), cause they are all selling the same product.
Again, construction is a different ballgame all-together. There is a level of craftmanship involved. A level of pride in their work. To me, this is like our local lumber store. I can pay $3. 50 for an 8ft 2x4 there, or drive 15 minutes to Home depot and pay $1. 79. Neither one is perfectly straight and true, so whenever I need more than just a few, it is off to home depot for me. The local lumberyard believes we should pay more cause they our in our little town and we are friends... well, if they are are friends, why are they trying to gouge us for the extra money per board? Because they can!

 

[Archive]

Excellent Rob, just EXCELLENT. Very well addressed. Thank You.

------------------
Y2K RAM 2500 4X4 QC LWB Patriot Blue 5-Speed 3. 54 LS rear end, Trlr. Tow & Camper Packages, Westin Nerfs and DC Mud Flaps. Stock, ALMOST (so there is no mis-understanding, ALMOST refers to my Westin Nerfs).

 

[Archive]

Rob,

No argument, where oil filters and 2x4 lumber are concerned. Anybody trying to make a start as an entrepreneur peddling 2x4s or oil filters deserves whatever fate a righteous God has in store for him. #ad
#ad


Ditto boxes of Kleenex, bottles of aspirin, and rolls of "squeezably soft" bumb-wad...

I think I had in mind something more along the lines of what our TDR family of business people are trying to hawk: say, the stuff advertised in the TDR, for starters.

As I said in my original post, there's nothing wrong, inherently, in shopping for a "deal. " We all do it, and would be crazy not to. Nor are TDR members "entitled" to expect we're all going to line up and automatically agree to pay a huge premium in order to buy their goods and services -- not what I mean -- trust me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that service + a quality product is almost ALWAYS going to be marginally more expensive than a wholesaled products (again, we're not talking boxes of "Tide," here... ) which are not accompanied by solid service.

I try to direct as much of my business as possible (when prices are competitive) to the folks (small business TDR guys) who are trying to "crack the nut" of making a business fly in a very tough, highly-taxed, highly-competitive environment. That's all I was suggesting.

"Craftsmanship," per se, is less of an issue in the automotive, aftermarket industry. Everyone's piece of 4", galvanized exhaust pipe is, as I said earlier, pretty much the same. On the other hand, I about wore "Ted J. " out with a ton of dumb-assed questions when I was trying to assemble my exhaust system. He held my hand throughout the entire process (via phone) and called me, after the install (a week later) to make sure I was satisfied and completely happy. I don't know if a sales-ferret-weasel from "Eli's House of Hot Exhaust Gasses" would've done the same. I'm guessing not... #ad
#ad
#ad


Anyway, I think I've about killed this "horse. "

[This message has been edited by Sasquatch (edited 10-24-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

Is Eli's House of Hot Gasses a franchise like Midas or Meineke??? (just kidding) I talked to a certain person who sells torque plates(i will leave names out of this) and he told me that other companies buy his torque plates and they sell them cheaper than he does. This guy is the manufacturer!!!It is all about the best price because once you get a customer to your store he might buy more product. The manufacturer should get his head out of his poop- shoot and also lower his price instead of losing customers. Just my . 02 cents worth

 

[Archive]

Four years ago, 230 hp and 605 ft lb was considered somwhat risky for the engine and drivetrain. I worked with TST and we pushed this to 300 and 350 hp. A few other companies such as BD were involved in transmissions, and power. A couple companies responded to my request with some clutch development.

More recently, Piers and I worked together and took that envelope to 500 hp, and came up with some ways to reduce egt enough to make the hp useable. We have been open about telling others what parts work and have received cooperation from companies such as BD (where Piers works) in developing/applying such "risky" parts as the Superturbo and big injectors (that is, they might not "catch on" and end up making the company a profit to offset development time and costs).

If it weren't for pioneering companies such as these, the now well-known pathway to and beyond 400 hp would not exist. Think about that as you reread this thread and decide which individuals and companies deserve your attention and business. When you call someone for advice, and then shop elsewhere for a little cheaper price that is accompanied by little knowledge or advice, you are cutting your own throat for future bombing advice. If you want more development in the future, look to companies that have done it for you in the past, and be sure they can remain in business.

I am not suggesting you should buy all generic stuff at high prices from shops that give you advice--far from it. I have to watch my money too. I try to achieve a balance. I also realize that the internet-promoted tendencies to expect and demand expertise for free and to shop for the very lowest price are artificial and contradictory to healthy business strategies.

 

[Archive]

All excellent points!

I always shop for the best price (with the amount of stuff I've piled onto my Ram, I have to)..... HOWEVER, if the service is not there, I'm gone! Period! That's why I continue to deal with companies such as BD, The PowerShop, D. I. S. and last (but certainly not least) Geno's Garage. These companies have proven time and again that they will do whatever it takes to satisfy the customer, in return, I reward them with customer loyalty and referals to friends. Oh, and by the way Joe, although I haven't been a TST customer in the past. . I will become one in the near future. #ad
I've even received good customer service from TST without ever actually having been a customer... I called and requested information on their new (THEN) PowerMax and received a really nice catalog. Later, I e-mailed Mark Chapple with a generic type question, receiving a timely, well thought out response (in which he had NO personal gain in answering). Who would you do business with? That's right, me too!

And last but not least, there is Ted Jannetty of JRE. Even though I've only purchased one item from him, he has ALWAYS been extremely prompt at answering my numerous e-mails (most within several hours), most of which were sent him before I was ever a customer of his.

Piers, Chuck, Mike, Brent, Robin, Ted and Mark... . THANK YOU! #ad
#ad
#ad
#ad

 

[Archive]

Joe... I agree with your idea. As has been stated here on the TDR, reverse engineering can be much easier and less expensive. I am just amazed sometimes at the difference in pricing, of the exact same product.

Personally, I purchase my BOMBs from people I can trust. I have overpaid to a local shop to try and help his business get back on its feet. Once they are on they feet again, I would expect that he would at least try to meet other pricing. If he gets close, then "sold", if not, I will order it.

 

[Archive]

Very well stated by all,
I was looking for a way to say what you guys have said without affending anyone, but you beat me to it.

Example; there is a group purchase on a product that normally sells for say, 450. 00, and a vendor agrees to sell them for a rediculusly low price because of how many people are going to buy this said product.
The Vendor will make 30. 00 on each piece and sees the potential for a big sale.

30. 00 works out to 12% profit, out of this profit you have to tie up money to buy the product, pay your employees to handle it, take phone calls, answer questions via Email, pay the credit card companys 2. 5%, pay your rent, lights, phone , heat, insurance, taxes, plus pay your self, etc.

Even if every sale goes perfectly smooth you have lost money!

Not to mention all the technical phone calls that will come after the fact.

Then what about warrantee, who will pay shipping from customer to vendor, vendor to manufacturer, manufacturer, to vendor, and vendor to customer.

I know if I only collected 12% on my money, It will have cost me money to do the transactions if everything went perfect.
And more if I had to handle warrantee.

I have nothing against group purchases, I have run them my self, but at a fair price for both parties!

1)a substantial savings to customer
2)a minimun profit to keep my nose above water
3)Without upsetting the other vendors.
4)Without decreasing the value of a product.
5)Still able to handle warrantee claims, and tech calls.

This criteria that needs to be followed.

What if the entire batch of product was defective? OOOUCH!!!!!!!

Question; How much is customer service worth?

I don't know if you can put a price tag on it but if you could I think it would be priceless.

Ted Jannetty

------------------
Ted Jannetty, Owner President jannettyracing.com
97 3500 4x4 club cab 5spd. RED, JRE stage 3 power kit, JRE 4" exhaust
JRE 1/2 inch fuel system, Bosch 300 hp injectors, Prime loc,
Cummins chrome kit, US Gear 20% over drive, 3. 54 posi, Autometer
Ultralite 50lb. boost, and Pyrometer, BD exhaust brake.
99 Ski-Doo 800 Formula III
99 Honda Forman 450 ES
2001 Ski-Doo MXZ 800 X
2000 Transam Ram Air WS6

 

[Archive]

There's a lot to be said for customer service, even if you have never bought anything from a particular vendor. Before I bought my truck I made as many calls as I could to many diiferent people and places. Jannety's was one of the places that I called. Even though I had never done business with him, Ted took the time to answer my questions and even offer a few suggestions (no sales pitches at all). Guess who I will be dealing with in the future!! There is a lot to be said for customer service, and it's nice to see that there are a few vendors out there that are still willing to go the extra mile to earn our money. There have been other vendors that I have tallked to whose names have been mentioned earlier, and I have recieved the same type of service from them. I will remember them as well. Thank you all.

 

[Archive]

As I read this thread, the prevailing theme that comes across is simply stated in one word . . . balance. Thanks to those who have posted.

TDR staff and moderators strive to achieve an appropriate balance for the web site. Your comments are greatly appreciated.

Robert Patton
Editor, TDR

 

[Archive]

Rednut,
Many manufacturers sell to vendors who will resale the product. The manu. will protect those vendors by selling to an end user at a higher price. This allows the vendors to also make a buck on the product. What this means many times is that the manufacturer will sell the product to an end user at a 50% markup while he will sell the same product to a vendor for 25% markup(these are hypothetical numbers). The vendor can then mark the product up at a 20% markup and sell the product cheaper than the manufacturer will. If it was not done this way, the manufacturer would not get the benefit of having all those vendors selling his product and his business would drop. (unless he had a product no one else made and the world wanted it!)

------------------
Stan
93 2WD extended cab, Banks Power Pack, K&N Air Filter, PW Injectors,Auto w/4. 10 rear with limited slip, US Gear Exhaust Brake, 31/2" Exhaust, 5K air bags, Boost/Pyro/Tach Gauges, Green/Silver, 146K

 

[Archive]

I have to agree with pretty much all that has been said here,if you will notice most if not all the vendors that have done the group purchases are names you are fimilar with. Some vendors "need" a higher profit margin than others. Some vendors "want" a higher profit margin for greed purposes. If for example you can get xyz brand of injectors from vendor "a" for $400 a vendor that you are familar with and has excellent customer service,and the same xyz injectors from another fine vendor "b"at $450 you decide. Ask some of the vendors who manufactures their products for them,and buy the same product from the vendor who offers the lowest price,if everything else is equal,that only makes sense! You will be surprised at the mark-up some vendors charge for the same identical manufactured product,thats why i started all the group purchases. I know of 2 vendors whose everyday prices(on most items) are 10-50% lower than the other guys and they have probably the best customer service. This is a partical list of who has done group purchases in the past:
Jardines
BD
Bully Dog
Rickson's
4 wheel parts
DTT
Practical Solutions
Mr Bob's
and others i can not remember right now,yes some vendors have ran there so called "group deals" at 5% off their 50% profit margin! So it comes down to this if you are comfortable with a place to do business by all means do business there,don't shop around. But if you will shop around you can get the "SAME" product from another well known company for 5-45% less.
A very good friend of ours owns a mom and pop grocery store. Some people buy all their grocieres there,because that is where they are comfortable doing their business. I asked my friend one time if he was offended because we didn't buy our grocieries there,his reply,**** no i wouldn't buy mine there if i didn't get the big discount.
So you see thats what makes this country,we (you and I) have FREEDOM'S. Different trucks for differnt folks,so to speak!

------------------
WWCD2'S HOME PAGE

 

[Archive]

In your business your are selling YOURSELF and your are accountable and might I add LIABLE for your actions.
Not so with a SALESMAN. His JOB is to move the product. He's the middleman. Sure service is of the utmost but all the smiles and condolences and "I'll get back to yous" and you can have your money back, don't make up for the dissapointment or time and energy that you spent. After all isn't our time worth something. H--L I could have been earning DOUBLE-TIME that Saturday working,instead I spent it pulling my hair out because the d--m thing either didn't work, didn't fit, or was the wrong model or just wouldn't work at all not to mention the look on my wife's face.
We all lie in the bed we make and I've slept in some pretty lumpy ones. How's that saying go, "I never went to bed with an ugly woman but I've woken up with a few".
Sure in many instances YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR for but that doesn't mean just because you paid top dollar and got great service you got the best product nor does it mean just because you bargained and did you HOMEWORK and got the BEST or COMPARABLE for the least that you didn't get a quality product or good service.
Your a business man and when it comes to money it's strickly business, other wise you wouldn't be in business. I'll end this with a quote,"There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to get a good deal on the products we buy. "
P. S. I agree with you; I think we're beating a dead horse here.




[This message has been edited by arar (edited 10-29-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

Originally posted by Ted Jannetty:

The Vendor will make 30. 00 on each piece and sees the potential for a big sale.

30. 00 works out to 12% profit, out of this profit you have to tie up money to buy the product, pay your employees to handle it, take phone calls, answer questions via Email, pay the credit card companys 2. 5%, pay your rent, lights, phone , heat, insurance, taxes, plus pay your self, etc.

Even if every sale goes perfectly smooth you have lost money!

Ted, as a businessman myself, I agree, but I cannot sympathize with the businessman who is not smart enough to avoid these deals. I think it requires intelligence among the buyer and seller to achieve a great marketplace.

Separately, my philosophy is that: "Great service should not be asked for. It should be EXPECTED!" If the consumer does not receive this, then they should be bright enough to go elsewhere. As has already been said, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Conversely, I know what the price of good service is, and I cringe only barely when I fork out my hard-earned dollars.

I'm 24 yrs old and have worked hard in home remodeling, real estate, and two internet businesses. I know it is hard to do the job right, but I realize my clients deserve good service. If I cannot handle it, then I am not worthy to work for myself. Two way street.

Regards,
Yung Stupid Jay

 

[Archive]

I think this society has become one of "instant gratification. " Many of us expect to pay next to nothing and receive a whole lot in return. It rarely works that way.

When we were a primarily agrarian culture, and people busted their humps long hours each day to bring in a crop, there was a general appreciation for the value of hard work, and the commerce of honestly struck bargains.

Not today, I'm afraid. Now, we're about ordering our stuff over the internet, then taking defective merchandise back to the "brick and mortar" vendor for repair work, and *****ing when he's not happy about that practice.

This society is going rapidly to **** -in-a-handbasket, and our politicians are leading the way with their "message" that we're entitled to "something for nothing. "

(putting away my soapbox... )