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GM Oil Change Algorithm Question

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mwilson

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Should I trust Hoopty in regards to oil change intervals??

Almost 5,000 miles since purchase, had fresh oil and filter at that time. Showed 100% oil life so it had been reset.

Oil life showing 63%, down almost a half a quart. By that logic my oil changes will be at the 10,000 mile mark. Oil looks great and I am speechless that I have purchased a Northstar that does not use much oil.

These have a 7 or 8 quart base, there is almost no idle time in my drive cycle. Average speed is around 60mph for those 5,000 miles.

I think I can trust the algorithm at this point, but what do you all think???

Mike.
 
Mike; I can't speak for GM but the wife's 2011 VW TDI has 10,000 mile/yearly oil change intervals. She is going in Monday for her yearly oil change on the VW. In a year I have had three to four oil changes on the RAM. The VW does use synthetic oil so this maybe the reason why the oil change interval is so long. Does the Cadillac use synthetic oil also?
Jim W.
 
No, dino oil is accepted practice until the '08 model year according to the Cadillac Customer Care folk.

I need to call my dealer buddy up the road to see what was used when they serviced it.

I don't care if it says Motorcraft (they are a Ford dealer) on it, that will be what it gets for oil from now on.:D


Mike.
 
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I am slowly learning to trust these newfangled oil service-life widgets. I just don't know how long I'd stretch it on dino oil. My wife doesn't put very many miles on her Acura, so I run synthetic and change it when the "little man" says so, or one year, whichever comes first. Hell, I'll bet that Hoopty will run on rendered moose blubber!
 
Mike; I can't speak for GM but the wife's 2011 VW TDI has 10,000 mile/yearly oil change intervals. She is going in Monday for her yearly oil change on the VW.
Jim W.

Jim, we have a 2013 Jetta TDI that is still getting it's 10k service intervals done under the VW sales agreement (until 36k)...That being said, my local independent Euro repair shop owner, who I have to say is COMPLETELY trustworthy, an excellent mechanic, does NOT like to throw parts or extrea maintrnance around just for the hell of it, and also is actually affordable in his work, HIGHLY recommends 5k oil change intervals on the TDI due to the visual condition of the filter and oil at the 10k intervals on even the current generation of VW TDIs. So I have been doing an extra oil change in between the dealer scheduled visits. Just something to think about.
 
I did do some reading on the Cadillac's when we had our SRX. Some engines, especially the 3.6, had problems with timing chain wear. One of the REPORTED fixes was 3,000 mile oil changes with Mobil one. have you checked out http://www.cadillacforums.com/ ?

Yes, I joined it back when I had the Eldorado.

I was shopping for a CTS before stumbling onto Hoopty. The timing chain issue does not seem to plague the Northstar V8.

I am going to post there as well, but I'm thinking it is ok to go with the algorithm in my drive cycle. Never any short trips or extended idling.

I think the CTS had a long drain cycle but a lot of the owners figured that the car was going to do that kind of distance sans make up oil, so they never checked the oil!!!!!Low oil pressure would result, timing chain wore rapidly as the tensioners are held in place using engine oil pressure.

Having the means to buy an expensive car does not go hand in hand with common sense at times.........

Mike.
 
Mike, just for speculation. If you have the owners manual, does it spec when to actually pull the dipstick and check level? IMHO it all gets back to basics. If I get a newer vehicle with these computers making these recommendations, then I might do a sample at the half point to build trust in the system. Is that 3.6 the same engine GM us using in everything nowadays?
 
I can't speak for northstar engines, but I'm on my second high mile LS engine. I use AC Delco filters and the specified oil (5w30 Dexos 1) and change it around 5-10%. I usually get around 7500 miles per oil change. My first GM oil life was a 03 Suburban 5.3. Bought it at 100K and sold it just under 200k. It used about .75 quart per oil change to stay at full mark. Current GM is 08 Tahoe hybrid 6.0. It goes about the same distance on an oil change, but uses more like .25 quart between changes. My philosophy is that I will sell it way before the engine wears out so I just service it by the book and don't loose any sleep over it.
My understanding is that the GM system uses an algorithm to chart total engine revolutions against average operating temp.
 
The dealer service staff where we bought our '14 Cruze LS, 1.8 manual told me the computer calculates by the times the engine is started. Okay, what is the truth, and where can we find it:confused: It's a great car, my wife's wheels. We can get 32mpg in mixed driving. Shift points are quick, with a shift light indicator.

Patrick.
 
Number of start times is one way to do it, if one uses normal oil, because engine starts are often 'dry'--it takes a while for oil to circulate. The best synthetics provide added protection to prevent wear during short periods of insufficient oil.

As for Hoopty, if you ran Amsoil Signature Series oil in it, changed the regular filters at normal intervals (or just used an Amsoil Ea filter) and added makeup oil as needed, you could go 15 000 to 25 000 miles--or one year--between changes.

Last time I drained the oil in my 12V was around 2000, 220 000 miles ago. I change the regular and bypass filters as needed and add makeup oil whenever needed, though it doesn't use much oil under normal driving conditions (only under high boost).
 
I copied this from bobistheoilguy:


One thing I can touch on and clear up.....the GM oil life monitor operation and my statement that ZDP (or ZDDP as you tend to call it here...most of the API literature just sticks to ZDP so I tend to use that) depletion is the basis for oil deterioration.

My spelling is poor but ZDP stands for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate which , as it sounds, is an anti-wear compound comprised of zinc and phosphorus.

ZDP is dispersed in the oil so as to be at a potential wear site if a surface asperity happens to break thru the oil film thickness causing the dreaded metal-to-metal contact. A molecule of ZDP must be present at that moment to prevent microwelding at the contact site which will cause material transfer, scuffing, scoring, wear and catostrophic failure. The concentration of ZDP in the oil will determine if there is ZDP present to work it's magic. The greater the concentration...the more likely a molecule of ZDP will be there...and vice versa.

By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions. Any given engine has a certain number of high potential wear areas where metal-to-metal contact could occur due to reduced film thickness and/or surface asperities....areas such as rubbing element cam followers, distributor gears, rocker arm pivots, push rod tips, etc...... The more of these areas the more ZDP depletion. The more often these features come in contact the greater the ZDP depletion. That is why, generally speaking, ZDP concentration in the oil, for any given engine, will decrease at a fairly linear rate when plotted versus cummulative engine revolutions. The more times it turns the more contact the more chance for wear the greater the depletion. This is as much of a fact as I could quote ever and is really not speculation or anything. It is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in many studies. That is why it is ONE of the basis for determining oil life remaining and why it is THE basic premis of the GM oil life algorithm. It is only ONE of the things that determines oil life...but it is the one thing that can be tied to engine operation in a linear fashion and estimated very accurately by accumulating engine revolutions via a counter.

The GM engine oil life monitor counts engine revolutions and accumulates the number for the basis of the oil life calculation. It then adds deterioration factors for operating temperature, start up temperature, soak times, ambient, coolant temperature, etc... There are a LOT of factors that "adjust" or affect the slope of the deterioration but the fundamental deterioration is traced back to the ZDP depletion that is inescapable with engine revolutions. The specific rate of ZDP depletion is readily measurable for any given engine so that is the fundamental item that is first calibrated for the oil life algorithm to tailor it specifically to that engine.

You would obviously like to get the oil out of the engine before the ZDP concentration gets so low that it is ineffective at being at the right place at the right time and preventing engine wear so that becomes the long term limit on oil life for that application.

The other things that determine oil life such a acid build up, oxidation, petane insuluables such as silicon from dust/dirt, carbon or soot build up from the EGR in blowby, water contamination, fuel contamination, etc.... are all modeled by the multipliers or deterioration factors that "adjust" the immediate slope of the line defined by the engine revolution counter as those items can be modeled in other ways and accounted for in the immediate slope of the ZDP depletion line.

The algorithm was developed over the course of many years by several lubrication experts at GM Fuels and Lubes, spearheaded by Doctor Shirley Schwartz who holds the patents (with GM) for the algorithm and the oil life montitor. I had the luck of working directly with Dr. Schwartz when the idea of the oil life monitor first progressed from the theoretical/lab stage to real world testing/development/validation. There were fleets of cars operated under all conditions that deteriorate the oil life for any and every reason and , thru oil sampling and detailed analysis of the oil condition, the algorithm was developed, fine tuned and validated to be the most accurate way invented yet to recommend an oil change interval by. As just one example, I have seen cars driven side-by-side on trips, one towing a trailer and one not, for instance, to prove the effectiveness of the oil life monitor in deteriorating the oil at a faster rate just because of the higher load, higher average RPM, higher temps, etc...and it works flawlessly.

The oil life monitor is so effective because: it is customized for that specific vehicle/engine, it takes everything into account that deteriorates the oil, it is ALWAYS working so as to take into account THAT INDIVIDUALS driving schedule, and it tailors the oil change to that schedule and predicts, on an ongoing basis, the oil life remaining so that that specific individual can plan an oil change accordingly. No other system can do this that effectively.

One thing is that I know personally from years of testing and thousands of oil analysis that the oil life algorithm works. There is simply no argument to the contrary. If you don't believe me, fine, but, trust me, it works. It is accurate because it has been calibrated for each specific engine it is installed on and there is considerable testing and validation of the oil life monitor on that specific application. NOt something that oil companies or Amsoil do. They generalize....the oil life monitor is very specific for that application.

Oil condition sensors in some BMW and Mercedes products are useful, also. They have their limitations, though, as they can be blind to some contaminates and can, themselves, be contaminated by certain markers or constituents of certain engine oils. Oil condition sensors can only react to the specific oil at that moment and they add complexity, cost and another potential item to fail. One other beauty of the GM oil life monitor is that it is all software and does not add any mechanical complexity, mass, wiring or potential failure mechanism.

There is considerable safety factor in the GM oil life monitor. Typically, I would say, there is a 2:1 safety factor in the slope of the ZDP depletion curve....in other words, zero percent oil life per the ZDP depletion is not zero ZDP but twice the concentration of ZDP considered critical for THAT engine to operate under all conditions reliably with no wear. This is always a subject of discussion as to just how low do you want the ZDP to get before the oil is "worn out" if this is the deciding factor for oil life. We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.

Please...NOT ALL ENGINES ARE THE SAME. The example above is an excellent practical justification of why you would want to add EOS and change the 15W40 Delvac in the muscle car at 3000 miles max and yet can run the Northstar to 12500 easily on conventional oil. You must treat each engine and situation differently and what applies to one does not retroactively apply to others. This is where Amsoil falls short in my book by proposing long change intervals in most everything if you use their oil. It just doesn't work that way. You can run the Amsoil to 12500 with no concerns whatsoever in the late model Northstar because even the oil life monitor tells you that for conventional oil off the shelf. Would I do that to the 502 in my 66 Chevelle...NO WAY. Amsoil says I can though. Wrong.


There are entire SAE papers written on the GM oil life monitor and one could write a book on it so it is hard to touch on all aspects of it in a single post. Hopefully we hit the high spots. Realize that a GREAT deal of time, work and energy went into developing the oil life monitor and it has received acclaim from engineering organizations, petroleum organizations, environmental groups all across the board. It is not some widget invented in a week and tacked onto the car.

The oil life monitor is not under the control of a summer intern at GM Powertrain per an earlier post....LOL Not that a summer intern wasn't compiling calibrations or doing a project on it but is under control of the lube group with a variety of engineers directly responsible that have immediate responsibility for the different engine families and engine groups. The idea that a summer intern was responsible for or handling the oil life monitor is ludicrous.....LOL LOL LOL
 
Thank you for that article, it has just taken the worry out of following the Oil Life Monitor for me. Interesting that the Northstar is brought up several times in the article.

It has always seemed to me that GM launches the best of the best in software and other trinkets in the Caddys, then will let it trickle down into the other brands as time passes.
My '97 Eldo had features not seen in other GM vehicles until the mid 2000's.

Mike.
 
Well, at the 11,000 mile mark I just couldn't take it anymore. This is the oil level and color of said oil with 18% still showing on the monitor.


IMG_20140809_105106407.jpg


IMG_20140809_105106407.jpg
 
I think 11k was long enough. I've had a truck or car in my family get up to 5,000 before I got 'round to changing. That's the longest I've let one go. Just my $0.02
Vehicles/oil change intervals: Chevy Cruze-3700; '06 Toyota Solara 5k; 97 Honda Accord 4500; '93 CTD 4800; '72 VW SuperBeetle 2k (new engine/case).

Blessings y'all, Patrick :D
 
We do oil change for our 2 cars every 4,000 miles. I'm not sure if this is exactly alright but reading from blogs, mostly, they change oil at 3,000-5,000 miles interval. Our cars aren't that old but they aren't new either. They've been with us for a few years already.
 
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