goose neck adapter

[Brian Sullivan]

Has anybody heard of a goose box instead of an adapter. This is for a 5th wheel. any thoughts or suggestions. Thank you Brian

 

[RustyJC]

Yes, Reese is marketing this "Goose Box" with Lippert's apparent blessing as Lippert is the exclusive distributor for the Goose Box to the U. S. RV marketplace and gets a cut on each one sold.



It still doesn't change the geometry and physics involved. The gooseneck, by virtue of its longer lever arm and lack of load plates that are present in a 5th wheel hitch, loads the pinbox and frame of the 5th wheel with a substantial torsional load that's not present (or designed for) in a 5th wheel hitch arrangement that loads the 5th wheel frame in shear.



Look at the gusseting in the "crown" area of a gooseneck trailer frame - it's there to resist these torsional forces imposed by the gooseneck post which is acting as a lever arm (think "cheater pipe"). This gusseting is NOT present in a 5th wheel frame, so failures in the pinbox and frame areas are possible and have been reported on the RV forums.



Caveat emptor... ...



Rusty

 

[RustyJC]

Yes, Reese is marketing this "Goose Box" with Lippert's apparent blessing as Lippert is the exclusive distributor for the Goose Box to the U. S. RV marketplace and gets a cut on each one sold.

In support of my statement above:

GOSHEN, Ind. , Aug. 16, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Lippert Components, Inc. , a subsidiary of Drew Industries Incorporated (NYSE: DW) and a leading supplier of components for the RV industry, announced today that it has been designated the exclusive supplier to the RV industry of Cequent Performance Products' innovative new patent pending Reese® "Goose Box™" adaptor for gooseneck hitches.

Full source article HERE.



The point is that Lippert's approval of the Reese Goose Box was a decision most likely made by the marketing and financial types, NOT the engineers (if Lippert has any of the latter).



Rusty

 

[ALSAN]

Do you need one, I have one I took off my fiver when I switched to a Hensley air ride hitch

 

[HBarlow]

I agree with the point about marketing and financial departments making that call.

I have my doubts that Lippert actually employs any genuine engineers. If they do, I wonder if anyone allows them to speak or listens if and when they do.

Adding a goosebox or gooseneck adapter to a typical Lippert framed Keystone, Forest River, or other similarly "designed" fifth wheel RV frame is a risky move.

But, as Rusty stated, caveat emptor.

 

[pwerwagn]

Everyone around me except my brother in law has converted their 5th's to a GN of one form or another. Every single one of them has had to fix the front portion of their frames, had to reinforce areas, etc. My 5th gets used more, and harder (lots of time in dirt/rough roads etc) and is a few thousand pounds heavier than any of theirs, and mine is still good after ~6 years of abuse. Mine is still a 5th wheel hitch... not a GN.



My sister and her husband (the brother in law i mentioned) recently had an accident in their 05 cummins/29' cougar, and rolled it all. I was amazed at how the 5th wheel hitch itself held up. It stayed attached to the truck, while the 5th wheel was falling to pieces.

 

[HBarlow]

Everyone around me except my brother in law has converted their 5th's to a GN of one form or another. Every single one of them has had to fix the front portion of their frames, had to reinforce areas, etc. My 5th gets used more, and harder (lots of time in dirt/rough roads etc) and is a few thousand pounds heavier than any of theirs, and mine is still good after ~6 years of abuse. Mine is still a 5th wheel hitch... not a GN.

My sister and her husband (the brother in law i mentioned) recently had an accident in their 05 cummins/29' cougar, and rolled it all. I was amazed at how the 5th wheel hitch itself held up. It stayed attached to the truck, while the 5th wheel was falling to pieces.

That's a good post. Many who use a gooseneck adapter claim they've used one for years and never had a problem or claim some friend or relative never had a problem with one. What they never tell us is how much their trailer was towed and how far.

 

[pwerwagn]

Ive tried one and they jerk like crazy compared to the 5th wheel hitch. That right there should be a big sign.



My uncle bought a new cougar in ~03, and cougar installed it at the factory (they picked it up at cougar... in wisconsin or something like that) and said it was warrantied. His did hold up for a while, past the cougar warranty. He ended up having to go in and reinforce the entire front of the trailer (he kept the GN).



Another friend of mine has a Jayco Eagle. It was brand new, and had ~600 miles on it and I notice the paneling around the hitch coming loose. When they got it home they checked it out and it was already stressing welds with ~1K miles on it.



My cousin just bought a 48' weekend warrior (FL4005+4 or +5), and they put a gn adapter on it for him when he picked it up. He said it towed terrible. He replaced the gn adapter with a 5th and it towed much better, wound up replacing the hitch with an air hitch... and then would up replacing the 3rd gen cummins with a volvo semi haha.



Ive just seen too many GN adapters fail/cause poor towing. I could go on with more examples, but im a big proponent for keeping the 5th.



ALSO... in a lot of states (not sure if all?), its legal to ride in a 5th wheel if you have walkie talkies. However, its not if it has a GN conversion. Also, the fact that a GN requires safety chains makes me believe its not as strong. I have seen GN balls break before (way overloaded).

 

[Barry]

When I was in the RV buying biz and I saw a 5th with the goose neck conversion, I just passed it up... ... ..... the torque factors from that long "cheater pipe", as Rusty referred to it, places a lot of undue stress on the unit that it was not designed for.



I am now buying horse trailers and medium duty trucks for the largest horse trailer dealer in the US. When we sell a medium duty truck that has a 5th wheel hitch, we always recommend switching the stem on the trailer to a kingpin/plate stem. It is a lot easier to hook up and if it is an air ride 5th wheel, the passengers and the horses love the ride!



mi dos centavos

 

[CharlesHoward]

Well, I've towed my fiver since Dec 2007 using a Star Performance Products Kingpin (Gooseneck) adapter that incorporates a glider motion. I do have to grease it every 2000 miles (along with the suspension wet bolts). Only the VERY roughest roads produce any chucking and just slowing down eliminates it.

I currently have 17000 towed miles on my Fiver with this Kingpin Adapter. Twice my RV has gotten stuck in LA "swamp" campgrounds after heavy rains (once it sunk up to the axles!) No harm done then. I will admit the Kingpin steel Plate on the Pinbox has gotten bent upwards at the rear just slightly recently, probably on the horrific washboard section of I-10 in New Orleans that caught me by surprize before I could slow it down and stop severe porpoising and chucking... That was at the 16500 mileage. Inspected and remounted (I do bolt onto the Kingpin plate) the adapter before my most recent trip (second one since New Orleans in June) and no problems/frame issue have yet to occur.

I've guess I got one of the strong enough frames that most adapter users have.

Of course frame failures occur most often with the more common Fiver hitch...

 

[RustyJC]

I've guess I got one of the strong enough frames that most adapter users have.

Yep, you're doing a LOT of guessing, but it's your money and your choice. By the way, the bent load plate on your pin box is trying to tell you something.....

Of course frame failures occur most often with the more common Fiver hitch...

Not the specific frame failures we're discussing. The mechanics are completely different.



You can whistle past the graveyard all you want and hope that the torque goblin doesn't get you. Maybe it will - eventually, or maybe it won't, for awhile longer. That's the thing about cyclic fatigue - you don't know how many cycles it will take to fail without a finite element analysis or an actual destructive rig test.



Good luck - you'll need it!



Rusty

 

[jelag]

Harvey

I had one of my employees wreck a 01 3500 with a B&W turnover hitch in the frame... The gooseneck hitch never let go... . the trailer came around (22K lbs) and struck the cab and bent the frame of the trailer and twisted the frame on the truck... both were a total loss... at a speed of about 10 mph on a 10% grade with water and leaves...

My point is, as your aware, is that the gooseneck in its design is a great hitch but it has to be designed that way... . a 5th wheel conversion as you've stated is just an accident waiting to happen... .

BTW - Harvey do you know if Lippert makes different qualities of chassis for the different body builders they supply?

My thoughts of course...

 

[CharlesHoward]

I figured I would stir the pot.

I was an Engineer long ago and studied statics and dynamincs, strength of materials, etc. I'm not whistling. Obviously the loads at the kingpin slightly exceeded design one time. The infamous "bending" loads affected the plate at the end of the Pinbox so slightly with no other apparent damage I probably have many more cycles to go... I have replaced my Dometic Fridge with a residential one so my RV won't burn down so I'm not ignorant of risk analysis. Its amazing how Camping World and so many other venders get away with selling adapters from many manufacturers without online rants from dissatisfied users. Its just not right!

 

[pwerwagn]

While we are on this topic... Has anyone ever had a Reese 5th wheel hitch "release"?



Reason I ask:

I used to have a victoria industries 5th wheel hitch in my truck. It was bulletproof. It had an obvious positive latch that you could see slide behind the kingpin, and I KNEW that trailer wasnt going anywhere. Problem was, it didnt slide (I have a shortbed), and it didnt pivot side to side. The places I take my trailer are pretty rough. SOOO... I bought a Reese slider/pivot hitch. I do not get a warm fuzzy when I latch it. It has half the jaw on each side, and it clamps down around the kingpin. Then there is a piece of ~1/8" plate that latches on the side that keeps the jaws from opening. The entire hitch is "sloppy" compared to my old victoria, but I have had it ~2 years now and its taken the trailer through some rough places and hasnt failed. But its still always in the back of my mind...



Anyone else ever had these thoughts?

 

[pwerwagn]

I figured I would stir the pot.

I was an Engineer long ago and studied statics and dynamincs, strength of materials, etc. I'm not whistling. Obviously the loads at the kingpin slightly exceeded design one time. The infamous "bending" loads affected the plate at the end of the Pinbox so slightly with no other apparent damage I probably have many more cycles to go... I have replaced my Dometic Fridge with a residential one so my RV won't burn down so I'm not ignorant of risk analysis. Its amazing how Camping World and so many other venders get away with selling adapters from many manufacturers without online rants from dissatisfied users. Its just not right!

Hey Charles,



I almost bought the star perf one for my trailer back when I tried the GN adaptor. I couldnt find any reviews at the time... with your report it sounds promising though!! The one thing I noticed with that adaptor (maybe just coincidence) was that every trailer that I found with one installed, had a tube ran from the king pin box back somewhere else. It just made me wonder. Even the one on their website now has the same tube that I was seeing on a lot of them. Is this some thing that comes with the hitch or they recommend or something?



PS... Im a mechanical engineer too.



#ad




--Jeff

 

[mwilson]

Pwerwagon,



Sounds like the same basic design as the industry favorite for Class 8 trucks.



Holland FW-35.



Yoke/bar goes down beside each jaw. Can't get out of there.



Mike.

 

[RustyJC]

I figured I would stir the pot.

I was an Engineer long ago and studied statics and dynamincs (sic), strength of materials, etc. I'm not whistling.

So yours was an "educated" decision to take this path? Interesting... .

Obviously the loads at the kingpin slightly exceeded design one time. The infamous "bending" loads affected the plate at the end of the Pinbox so slightly with no other apparent damage I probably have many more cycles to go...

Ummmm... . no, the bending loads exceeded the capabilities of the material, not the design load. The design of a load plate on a kingpin box doesn't contemplate such loading as that applied by a gooseneck adapter. The designer intended the loading to be compressive to carry the pin weight of the trailer with a lesser shear component as the load plates of the trailer and the hitch slide across each other during turns.

I have replaced my Dometic Fridge with a residential one so my RV won't burn down so I'm not ignorant of risk analysis.

Ummmm..... OK. Glad you addressed THAT risk, but interesting that you considered it so significant when you pooh-poohed the risk associated with the gooseneck adapter...

Its amazing how Camping World and so many other venders get away with selling adapters from many manufacturers without online rants from dissatisfied users. Its just not right!

Do you frequent RV forums at all? The failures related to the use of gooseneck adapters are well documented. If you doubt that, just read the earlier posts in this thread. You could always run a Google search on "gooseneck adapter frame failure" just for grins if you like. Camping World (and others) sells LOTS of stuff that is ill-advised or unneeded. The fact that something is in a Camping World catalog hardly validates its design and functionality. In fact, the manufacturer of the Cody Coupler gooseneck adapter recognizes the risks associated with this product and states the following on its WEBSITE (emphasis in quote is mine):

A word of caution is in order about the use of the Cody Coupler! Because of its design, additional pressure may be placed on the "King Pin" of the trailer it is mounted on. This is a result of the leveraging action involved. Because of this, we feel it is wise to mention several steps that should be taken by the owner of such a rig. These are "common sense" suggestions that could and should apply to any type of trailer hook-up.



REGULARLY INSPECT THE INSTALLATION OF THE COUPLER

Make certain the "King Pin" is securely attached to the Pin Box. Occasionally, additional reinforcement might be advisable.



AVOID THE "POP-A-WHEELY SYNDROME"

Smooth, even starts and stops are always better than the jerky motion.



TRAILER BRAKES SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN GOOD WORKING ORDER!

And properly hooked up.

Rusty

 

[pwerwagn]

Pwerwagon,



Sounds like the same basic design as the industry favorite for Class 8 trucks.



Holland FW-35.



Yoke/bar goes down beside each jaw. Can't get out of there.



Mike.

Thanks for that pic!! Ill have to look at mine again and see how it is retained.



--Jeff

 

[CharlesHoward]

Jeff,

Their website has "kudos" and I got mine back in 07 from a reseller who had several pleased customers per his claim.



Mine is just like in the picture you linked to. The very short tube with 3 screws projecting out is what goes over the standard kingpin and the locking collar that actually is on the kingpin and it not visible.



They have installation instructions online. I've seen MANY Gooseneck adapters of the straight tube to the ball in most campgrounds I've been in. But I've never encountered anyone who has this adapter. Obviously its stronger than any pinbox I've seen.

Its heavy enough you really need two people to put it on or set it on something and lower the RV on it (unless you're really strong). About a year ago the spring lever on one of the safety chains got messed up and they sent me a whole new set of safety chains when I inquired about a replacement link. Very pleased!



I have a friend who wanted to buy it from me since he had a short bed truck. Since he urgently needed a adapter for his just purchased RV, he got one locally / retail that is just the tube with a long steel extension on the end to the ball. Also very robust and he's towed across the country once with it. Not as nice as the Star Performance!

 

[CharlesHoward]

Why did I ignore so much "advice" that a Gooseneck adapter would destroy my RV?

Way back in 07 I bought a lightly used 05 RAM with a generic Turnover Ball in the bed rated for 20K lbs. That was before I found and bought my trailer.

So I researched RV.net and lots of other online boards and could find no consistent Reported/actual user problems with gooseneck adapters. Almost all RV Frame failures were and are with normal Fiver Hitches. The Only frame failure I've actually SEEN myself was with a standard Fiver Hitch. I studied the Star Performance Hitch which incorporates a glider motion and suppossed it would mitigate the most common back and forth stresses the RV would encounter in a smoother fashion than all but the most expensive Fiver Hitches.

Also hitching up is foolproof and gentle, albeit slower. So I disregarded all the non-user assessments that somehow the solid connection strength would bend the RV pinbox and frame. Since the online frame failure reports are not usually catastrophic and repairable, albeit expensive it was a reasonable tradeoff for me that has paid off so far.