Gooseneck ball measurement location

[CKelley1]

our tractor trailers have sliding 5th wheels and we know where they need to be . when we mounted our 5th wheel in the 06's we built our own frame brackets and used an initial setting of 2"forward of the axel our weights are 5,180 front axel 6,210 rear axel 3,900 front trailer axel 4,060 rear trailer axel i liked it well enough that i left it there

 

[RVTRKN]

Cattletrkr: Can you explain the reason for 4"-5" forward of the axle? It seems to me your the only member here that states this. I'm not being a smart*** but just curious for your reason. I've been on the side of minority opinion arguments before and I always had to have some evidence back them up. My case in point is the thread (Mpg question when towing) were I seem to be the only person that likes mid range RPM when towing heavy up grades.

 

[CKelley1]

before 1983 we had gas rigs with light motors and single rear wheels, by placing the 5th wheel 4 to 5 inches forward of the axel made sense. it does not on these trucks you should have the weight distributed about the ratio i have for optimum drive and safety and if you pull hard at low rpm you will beat out the bottom of the rod bearings, stay in the mid to high range when towing heavy up grades

 

[Cattletrkr]

Cattletrkr: Can you explain the reason for 4"-5" forward of the axle? It seems to me your the only member here that states this.

4"-5" is definently on the high side. My '04 was only about 2" and it worked. I would have preferred it further up, but that's where the Drop'n'lock goes and there's no adjustment. On that same truck, the B+W sits roughly 2"-3" further forward yet. I know that because we took a B+W out of dad's '03 and put a Drop'n'Lock in instead... he sells the DNL and didn't want a B+W in his own truck. He still has the hole from the B+W in front of his current hitch.

Anyways... anything in front of the axle is fine, centered of it is not. Never has been never will be. I honestly have never heard anyone say to put it centered before. I have talked to guys who made that mistake once, but will never do it again.

I can't offer any links or resources because it is simply common knowledge in the GN hitch industry to put the hitch in front of the axle. They only discussion I've ever had about this before is how far in front to place the hitch. Never has the discussion been whether or not to put it forward. I'm completely blown away that anybody would actually want to have a hitch centered.

I'm not being a smart*** but just curious for your reason. I've been on the side of minority opinion arguments before and I always had to have some evidence back them up.

I guess I don't see myself as being in the minority. My personal experience tells me that 100% of all hitches are, or at least should be, in front of the axle. Again, it blows my mind anyone wants the hitch centered.

My case in point is the thread (Mpg question when towing) were I seem to be the only person that likes mid range RPM when towing heavy up grades.

I'm with ya on that one.

Quote from EB:
Weights; empty with full fuel, front axle; 4740 lbs. , rear axle; 4880 lbs. Empty weight 9620.
Weight with empty trailer; front axle; 4780 lbs. , (only 40 lbs. more) Rear; 6380 lbs. Total empty wt. 17720.

So your trailer weighs 8100lbs and yet it only adds 40 lbs to the front axle? hmmm. In order to overload a 5200lb axle, you need to add 461 lbs to the empty weight. Anybody care to guess how heavy of a trailer that would take? I don't want to post the ridiculous number I came up with until I have a chance to check the physics of it. Aw heck with it. 93,352. 5lbs. Even I'm having a hard time believing that. I took 461/40 * 8100. Should be right, but I've gotta be missing something. Somebody please set my math straight if I'm wrong.


Harvey, I know you're not a stupid man and I'm sorry if this sounds like a personal attack. But I'm not backing off on calling the idea of mounting a hitch over the center of the axle, stupid. I'm sorry, but it is.

 

[HBarlow]

4" to 6" in front of the center of the axle is good for most applications. [/QUOTE]



Your first post in this discussion claimed the hitch should be mounted 4" to 6" in front of the axle but in your recent post you have backed off that claim to say . . .



"Anyways... anything in front of the axle is fine"



Would 3/4" in front of the axle be satisfactory? How about 1/2"? Or, in a pinch would 1/4" be acceptable?



"I can't offer any links or resources because it is simply common knowledge in the GN hitch industry to put the hitch in front of the axle. They only discussion I've ever had about this before is how far in front to place the hitch. "



Would it be accurate to summarize your argument by saying that you and some people you know prefer to mount a gooseneck ball forward of the axle?



And even though you say "anything in front of the axle is good" I am stupid or my idea is stupid to say that a fifth wheel hitch should be mounted over the axle?



I guess those who read this can decide.

 

[EB]

Quote:

Quote from EB:

Weights; empty with full fuel, front axle; 4740 lbs. , rear axle; 4880 lbs. Empty weight 9620.

Weight with empty trailer; front axle; 4780 lbs. , (only 40 lbs. more) Rear; 6380 lbs. Total empty wt. 17720.

So your trailer weighs 8100lbs and yet it only adds 40 lbs to the front axle? hmmm. In order to overload a 5200lb axle, you need to add 461 lbs to the empty weight. Anybody care to guess how heavy of a trailer that would take? I don't want to post the ridiculous number I came up with until I have a chance to check the physics of it. Aw heck with it. 93,352. 5lbs. Even I'm having a hard time believing that. I took 461/40 * 8100. Should be right, but I've gotta be missing something. Somebody please set my math straight if I'm wrong.



I really don't know what point you are try to make here. My weights are off a cat scale and the truck was set up by Texas Truck and Body, a very large upfitter, with a very good reputation. They set up this truck and my last one. The one before that was set up by someone else, but the weights were about the same. After over 900,000 miles of towing trailers with no handling problems at all, I'm still wondering what point you you are trying to make. If something was bad wrong about the way it is set up, I would think it would have shown up by now.

 

[NIsaacs]

Anytime you can share some of the duties of the rear axle of most pickups with the front axle, it makes good sense. With the ball mounted dead center with the rear axle, 100% of all forces applied will be under the control of that rear axle. If you mount the ball, say 6" ahead of center on a standard cab, standard 8' bed pickup (about the most for clearance reasons) that is about 4. 5% on a 133" wheelbase.



Not all pickups are created equal so adjust accordingly. In the case of a dually, the rear axle can handle more of the total forces applied to the ball, however it still makes sense to share some with the front axle.



I use this theory with my pickups when I mount the ball.





"NICK"

 

[NIsaacs]

I think what "Cattletrkr" was pointing out is, it is hard to overload the front axle with a small placement of the ball forward. In the case of 4. 5%, that is about 135lbs of shared weight if the weight on the ball is 3,000lbs.





"NICK"

 

[RVTRKN]

HBarlow vrs Cattletrkr : It seems to me your both wrong. (misguided)



Cattletrkr: You did change your measurements from 4" to 6" as the thread started out, to include a reply " Not prefect, but it'll work" when NScott came back saying 1-1/2" is what a welder said.



HBarlow: Exact center over the rear axle is not what is recommended with the RBW 5th wheel hitch I installed on my 94 2500 gasser, (which I would not buy again) and I found the center using a plumb-bob and locating the pin in the "Lill Rocker" hitch forward by 1-1/2" of center.



For whats it worth, many installers don't have it correct. My case in point was my neighbor who owns the exact hitch I have (my 2500), and the RV retailer installed it when he purchased his first 5ver. They located the pin 1" aft of the axle, and when I was comparing my install to double check myself with his truck, is when I noticed the problem. He stated that it (pin location) must be the reason why he had to install airbags when he increased the weight when he purchased his heavier current 5ver, causing the front end to raise causing bad handling. Also the retailer were I bought my Lill Rocker wanted to drill for the brackets on my new 04. 5 (at the time) Hydro Formed Frame and the welder that my Dodge dealer recommended wanted to weld the brackets in place. Dodge will void the warranty for both methods, and it took months to find the Reese brackets that clamped over the frame and not void my warranty. These brackets were not adjustable on the frame due to using exsisting holes in the frame when installed, the location of the pin was forward of the axle. I didn't measure it but it is forward of the axle and can not be changed, but it is not 4"-6" forward.



Center is not as bad as aft of the axle but is not the standard and 4"-6" forward is also not the standard. I guess its were we like our own setup to be and as long as its not unsafe, who cares. I'm just pointing out to you both, your not of the standard.

 

[Cattletrkr]

Quote:
I really don't know what point you are try to make here.

Nothing negative aobut your setup. Simply that:

it is hard to overload the front axle with a small placement of the ball forward

Would it be accurate to summarize your argument by saying that you and some people you know prefer to mount a gooseneck ball forward of the axle?

No. It would be accurate to say that overloading the front axle is not a concern and that mounting the ball ahead of the axle is far and away the preferred method.

I guess I was wrong... sorta. I started out saying 4-6 knowing that I was going to get called out on it. I had no idea 0" would be the rallying cry. I asked my dad who has been installing GN hitches for about 10 years, most of them with my help but not the earlier ones. I should have said 2-6. Oops. My bad.

Harvey, where are your "facts" here other than the rating of the axle?

Given the choice between the obvious facts such as the unloaded weight of the front axle of a 3500 pickup or cab and chassis with bed is around 4700# without a load on the bed and the factory specified maximum front axle weight rating is only 5200# and, as most understand, moving the hitch point six inches forward of the rear axle would shift more weight to the front axle and possibly overload it, or your unsubstantiated opinion I'm going to go with the facts every time. I mount hitches over the rear axle.

You said this:

As I posted earlier, CM Truck Beds in Madill, OK, a very large volume builder of aftermarket truck beds builds their beds with gooseneck ball pockets only a couple inches forward of the rear axle.

Maybe you should let Reese/Drawtite and CM know that they're "stupid" and "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG" also.

In response to this:

CENTERED OVER THE AXLE IS WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

When I wrote that, I was referring to:

I made sure that my bed installer installed the fifth wheel rails centered over the rear axle. I don't want to shift weight to the front axle.

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The customer is always right.

I'm not sitting here saying 6" is the only way to go. Heck, I've never had a hitch that far forward. My current ball is only 3. 5" or so. They (bed installer) said it was 4", I guess they were off a little. I'd prefer a little bit further forward, but it's ok where it is and certainly not worth moving.

All I'm saying is centered is wrong and overloading the front axle is not a concern. So far no one has proven otherwise.

 

[EB]

On my setup, it is hard to transfer very much weight forward because of my wheelbase and bed length. The bed is 11. 5 ft long with 80' ahead of the center of the axle. Unless I'm just carrying pipe like I will be doing tomorrow, I usually put the handling tools on the bed ahead of the gooseneck hitch. That's why I got the longer bed and wheelbase. The longer bed so I don't have to tie a bunch of tools down on the trailer and the longer wheelbase for the smoother ride. It is not unusual to have a thousand lbs. or more of handling tools on the bed of the truck between the hitch and cab.

 

[Cattletrkr]

That sounds like a nice smooth ride.