Got my fifth wheel installed

[jimnance]

Got some interesting information on the frame while having my fifth wheel installed.



I asked why they went to a boxed frame when the older frame was so strong. The shop owner reported that they have seen several Generation Two trucks with cracks in the frame near the junction of the cab and bed. He thinks that frame strength was one reason that we didn't get a crew cab sooner. The frame wouldn't take the extra stress.



He speculated that the guys with broken frames were probably way over GVWR causing the frame to crack over time, but he thinks that the new frame will prove to be stronger.



As far as hitch installation is concerned they bolted the hitch supports to the side of the frame rail. One existing hole was able to be used, and three new ones had to be drilled on each frame rail. The key is they only drilled through one wall, not through both sides. Then using a snake they fished the bolts through access holes about two feet further back on the frame and attached the nut on the outside of the frame rail. He says strength is not compromised, and no problem squishing the frame since it does not go through both sides.



Anyway, like everything they do it looks extra strong.



Interesting about the cracks in the Gen. two frames though.

 

[kbarlow]

Jim,



Is your truck a 2500 or 3500? Is it possible for you to photo the frame install?



Thanks Ken

 

[jimnance]

2500 series. I need to find the digital camera charger, but will try to get some pics in a couple of days.

 

[kbarlow]

Thanks Jim



Ken

 

[Casey Balvert]

I received an update from Pullrite yesterday. They are committed to a completely drill free application for their hitches. It may mean some redesign of the base rails but I think they will do it eventually. And given the conflicting information from various folks about hydroformed frames, a no drill install remains my first choice. I can afford to wait until March since the trailer is now in storage. That unfortunately does not help those who need a hitch now.



I still maintain that DC has a responsibility to communicate with the buyers of their products when issues like this arise. A little honesty goes a long way, even if it hurts a little. Why can't they admit that fifth wheel towing was the last thing on their minds when they designed the frame?



Cheers, Casey

 

[Dean Upson]

Jim, Is that a Reese? I actually saw the instructions for the install about a month ago, the part number was 58166 bolt and spacer kit and part number 58186 bracket kit. I was a little concerned about the drilling. They did show "snaking" the bolts thru the frame and drilling only one side of the frame. I had a Reese hitch and really liked it on my other truck. I decided to go up to a 20. 5k with the new trailer and I liked the way the PullRite hitch works (just my personal opinion), and I think they will have the "clamp on" mount soon. Getting the RhinoLiner put on today and will be ready for that hitch as soon as they are available. I also will be adding the Prodegy brake controler and I have the Jake on order.



Dean

 

[jimnance]

It is a Draw Tite 16K.



If drilling holes in the frame is such a big deal, then why is it that Dodge has drilled many holes in the frame? The answer is that they know where to drill based on engineering and stress analysis.



We don't have access to those resources but the Hitch Manufacturers do.



As an aside I mentioned to the Service Writer at the local Dodge dealer that drilling of the frame for hitch installation was prohibited by Dodge. He was quite surprised and totally unaware of the issue.

 

[Lucas]

I have the B&W set up in my truck and I love it. Easy to install, no drilling, 30,000 lb capacity, sweet.

 

[Casey Balvert]

I posted this in the towing section as well but again since this appears to be unique to 2003 I will post it on this thread:



The hitch saga continues and I think I will write a book.



I received a call from Chrysler Customer Service today in response to my last email. The gentleman advised me that Chrysler does not recommend drilling the frame. (Surprise) Advised me that it was the customer's responsibility to insure an installation that was not going to damage the frame. I asked for guidelines. He repeated his previous statement and advised that DC does not provide guidelines. I tried to interject something about DC responsibility to their customers but if fell on deaf ears. I asked if drilling the new hydroformed frame was any more likely to cause damage than drilling the old frame. He repeated the DC does not provide guidelines for installing hitches. I expressed politely my frustration (honest) and again stated that DC insists on my using a fifth wheel hitch attached to the frame and they should either sell a hitch or provide some information so that customers do not damage their trucks. I don't think he heard me. I insisted that he respond to my questions in writing by email. He did say that Hidden Hitch produced a hitch for the new trucks that did NOT require drilling.



So a phone call to Hidden Hitch. Guess what? The do drill the frame on the Dodge Heavy Duty application. I spoke to the tech people. They are as frustrated with DC as you and I are. They did install a hitch in one of their test trucks and it was drilled. They don't know what happened to the test truck but they were not aware of any problems as a result of drilling. It is highly unlikely the DC would have admitted a problem even if there was one. That would really kill their truck sales.



I really think that DC's customer's deserve better treatment than this.



Casey

 

[D808]

I've had a few experiences with customer service people myself. Those experiences were anything but pleasant! It seemed to me that those people were very well rehearsed on their responses, but knew very little about the product, or how to foster good customer relations. Back in 1995 I called Ford's customer service people and got so pi--ed off that I promised them I'd never own another Ford! Fortunately, Dodge and Cummins are making it extremely easy to keep that promise!!!!!



I personally don't believe that properly drilled holes in the vertical section of a truck frame will cause any harm. I do believe that Dodge is concerned that owners or hitch installers might collapse the box frames by drilling and bolting through both vertical sections (inner and outer). That would be a very bad thing!!!!! In addition to seriously compromising frame integrity and alignment, a secure hitch attachment would not be accomplished. I believe the onus is on the hitch makers to engineer a proper securement system for their hitches. If turn-over-ball can do it, the others can too!!!



Although hitch mounting seems to be a complex issue with the new box type frame, I'm confident that the strength of our new frames greatly exceeds those used by brand X or Y!!!!!!! Let's try to keep our glasses half full instead of half empty.

Federal Man

 

[Casey Balvert]

Federalman,



If that was the case, why wouldn't Dodge make the statement that while they still don't recommend drilling, the dangers of frame damage are no greater then previous years provided that precautions are taken to avoid collapsing the frame? DC knows there is an issue, why not come out with some sort of compromise and nip this problem in the bud? Why keep repeating "not to drill the frame" ad nauseum? I for one am not willing to gamble $40,000 on possible problems down the road. Significant structural damage if it were to occur in the future due to a hole drilled in the frame today will result in total loss of the vehicle. The hydroformed frame is an unknown factor in the equation. This is like buying a heavy duty truck for hauling gravel in your construction business only to find out after the fact that the truck's maker has left you no way to attach a dump box. It just does not make any sense.



I bought this truck as my retirement vehicle and will be moving to a heavy fiver. I bought it for the specific purpose of pulling my fifth wheel. It is not a daily driver. I continue to hope that hitch manufacturers will come up with a workable solution but if they do, it certainly won't be due to any efforts on the part of DC.

 

[Fireman]

Are you suprised ?

DC isn't going to say anything, or especally put anything into writing that may be held against them. I'm not even sure they know the full ramifications of drilling the frame, therefore they say "We don't recomend..... " and they are covered. Most manufacturers will dispute warranty claims where and major component has been changed or altered. What we really need is to find someone in engineering who isn't afraid to speak candidly, and would explain the strengths and weaknesses of these frames so we may make more informed desisions about our vehicles. I'm not going to hold my breath untill that happens though. Some of the negative vibes started getting to me the other day, like, they sure are taking a long time developing mounts, I hope they don't get frustrated, through something together and call it done. Then I rembered why I am waiting on Pull Rite, their Superglide hitch was so impressive, from a engineering standpoint and from the quality of manufacture. I'm soothed again. Ooooooooooooooom, Ooooooooooom



Fireman

 

[Casey Balvert]

Fireman, sure doesn't take much to keep you happy. Just a hitch.



I will say that Pullrite's commitment to it's customers beats DC hands down. They always take your call, they are honest and they have a sincere desire to get the customer what they need. No doubt they will come up with something for our trucks.



What bothers me is DC's "you bought it; now it is YOUR problem" attitude. I spent a lot of money in good faith and they let me down. Call me naive it you want, but it does not sit well. I will continue to pursue them for a reasonable answer. They OWE me that much.



Casey

 

[DIESELMAN]

How is DC acting any different than Ford or Chedy?



They also do not provide specific hitch recommendations beyond products that they offer for sale and for any modifications do they not specifically say do not drill the frame or cross members?



When you call Ford, sure they take your call quickly, sure they talk nice to you and send you lots of junk mail after the call, but they still do the same think for your problem, squat. At least with DC you know where you stand!



What is wrong with an aftermarket company, for any product they wish to sell, stepping up to the plate and designing a new product integrated and designed to fill the need for which it is needed and taking the heat for whatever it is they design and sell?



I trust that companies like PullRight will design and stand behind a product that is much better than the OE manufacturer ever could. Thats why we pay the big bucks!



If DC or any manufacturer did it right in the first place, why BOMB?



I personally don't want the manufacturers one size fits all compromised solutions to every need, I want the PullRright version, not the U-Haul special, keep the lawyers happy, we think you only need to tow this much version.



DC owed me a strong, reliable, durable, value for the dollar truck, and to stand behind what THEY built, aftermarket product customer service is a bonus and I don't really expect it, after all, they all ready got my money didn't they? And they aren't getting any more of it for this truck, the deal is closed.



DC or any manufacturer is not in the business of providing engineering oversight for 20,000 aftermarket providers, one misspoken word and they are sunk. Even Ford says that NO accessories must be connected to the vehicle electrical system, period. And you get zero from them when you ask how to connect a Two Way Radio. They will tell you any way you want just dont use the vehicles electrical system to power it. You are on your own.



If you drill and bolt and it breaks, too bad, so sad, fix it and deal with it, it's nobody's fault but your own. DC gave you savy engineering advice, don't drill. You are your own warranty station. No one made you do it.

 

[D808]

I agree with Dieselman. Although I don't have an engineering degree, I do have quite a few years of real-world experience with things mechanical. The high stress area of a truck frame is generally near the rear of the cab. Because the fifth wheel hitch mounting area is near the rear axle, frame failure is liest likely to occur in that area. A few holes properly drilled in the outside vertical section of the frame will not compromise it's integrity or strength. Especially near the rear axle. Proper shims must be used when necessary, as well as high grage bolts of a sufficient diameter and properly torqued. As I said before, the onus is on the hitch manufacturer to provide proper engineering. Dodge doesn't manufacture hitches, and can't dictate to those who do. Also, they certainly can't control the actions of hitch installers. Therefore, I believe the disclaimer from Dodge is reasonable. If Dodge predrilled holes to accomodate all of the many hitch manufacturers, our Dodge frames would look like swiss cheese! Personally, I plan to buy a turn-over-ball hitch. They seem well engineered, and were used and recommended by Dodge. If the other hitch manufacturers would have had their s--t together, they could have also been in the game. I use Cummins Premium Blue Oil and always will. In case of an engine failure, they can't very well say I used the wrong oil. Same with the hitch. I will use the one that Dodge used on their 2003 Heavy Duty promotional vehicles.



The 2003 Dodge Heavy Duty trucks have been engineered using cutting edge technology, and the components (frame included) are much more sofisticated than those installed in previous models. Because our Dodges are considerably heavier than comparable Fords or Chevys it's plain that we got more bang for the buck!

I also believe that some of that extra weight is in the frame.



In conclusion, when attaching an after market accessory to the frame of any truck, proper engineering is of the essence! You must know what you're doing when you start drilling on a frame. However, if drilling of the new Dodge frame were completely forbidden, Dodge wouldn't have drilled so many. Perhaps Dodge should change their statement to "we don't recommend drilling of the frame by anyone that doesn't know what the h--l they're doing!" I could certainly live with that!



Federalman

 

[CAKUZ]

Casey is right! DC came out with this new ' heavy duty' truck bragging about it's "Best In Class" 23,000# GVWR towing and "awesome 5320# max. payload"capacity, with a new hydroformed frame that is 'stiffest in Ram history, stronger & lighter. They remind us that a 5th wheel hitch is required to tow trailers over 10,000#, in effect , to make use of the HD Ram's tow copacity.

Then they say do not drill or weld the frame, do not provide any way to attach a hitch. This makes the truck almost useless for the purpose that the ones of us with heavy 5er trailers buy the trucks for. I do NOT want a goose neck ball ! Most of us allready have quality hitches.

I am with Casey 100 % . We need to keep after DC to come up with a reasonable way to install a hitch so we can use the trucks for towing as they advertise them to do, and not just keep giving us the SOS that DC is noted for that releives them of all responsibility to thier customers.



It would have been simple and in-expensive for DC to put some holes for hitch bolts in the frame before it was tempered/heat treated.

When this problem gets to be known to the buying public, I am sure it will cost DC a lot of sales. I think our best bet to get DC's attention is keep spreading the word about this problem. The last thing they want is bad/negative publicity. Chrysler Corp. lack of concern for the customer is one of the reasons I honestly think they have came close to going out of bussines several times. I recall the problems they seemed to constantly have

when I worked in the Detroit auto plants from 1957-68.



I think the HD Ram with the Cummins TD is the best truck available today, but problems like this with the hitch install is totally uncalled for and will hurt DC the most in the long run.

 

[Casey Balvert]

Dodge goes to great expense to promote these trucks as tow vehicles. You only need to look at their website, Towing Guide, product brochure or owner's manual to figure that out. They do not promote them as bases for two way radios or promote them as starting points for hot rods. Two different issues. I can take responsibility for my actions, Dodge should too. My two cents.

 

[Casey Balvert]

Back to the issue at hand. I just received a call from the technical folks at the hitch maker that was involved with the Ram test vehicles. He stated that while it may be possible to clamp brackets to some of the models, especially the 2500, the welded overload hangers on the one ton trucks make it very difficult. The most difficult is the 3500 two wheel drive due to insufficient clearances. That is why they will be marketing brackets that will require drilling. Those brackets will be available in mid January and will fit both 2500 and 3500 trucks. He was involved with installation of several hitches on test trucks which were also drilled and bolted. He said that with many miles of towing heavy loads there were no problems with the installations or the frame. While he is not sure why DC would issue the no drill statement, he felt that the reason was most likely the potential for compression of the frame walls if the the rail was drilled and bolted through both sides of the frame. He stated that sleeves to prevent compression or better yet, only drilling through one side and fishing a bolt from within would address that concern and provide a strong installation. I certainly am more comfortable knowing that the drilling and bolting method has some history on it. I am not sure that it will help anyone make a decision regarding the installation of their hitch, but thought though I would share that with the fiver owners. It also explains why Dodge refused to answer my question regarding how they installed the hitches on the vehicles in some of their promotional stuff. Pretty hard to admit that you drilled the frames of the test trucks and then issued a no drill statement to your customers. I am going to wait for a no drill installation for another month or so. If one doesn't come to the market then I will not have any other choice. FWIW.



Casey

 

[DIESELMAN]

Keep in mind, Dodge did not and has not said "Do Not drill the frame", they said, "We do not recommend drilling the frame".



They didn't say you can't, they won't come take your truck away from you, and they won't void your warranty. They just won't cover any damage that occurs aftermarket. Same for any mod.



I just did a search, there are 27,100 hits for 5th Wheel Hitch, and in just a few pages there were over 48 manufacturers listed. I'll bet that no two are alike.



Me, I don't need my hitch till spring, good for me, and I'll wait for PullRight. If it requires drilling at that time, I'll let the shavings fly.



But... I do agree if they (DC) had their collective heads out of their arses they would be selling a top dollar hitch or have mounting pads on the frame, tapped and everything, even the holes in the bed. I'd've paid more for it. Y'all would've too I'm sure. (Hello dodge, are you listening??)



BTW, I'm towing a massive load of 6400 pounds to Fairbanks from Arizona in January. My First Alaskan Winter Diesel trip... . Yeee Haaw!

 

[Casey Balvert]

Dieselman,



6400 pounds is an insult to your truck. :{ Can't you find something heavier that will challenge it a bit? Say 16,000?



Casey