Had My 1-year Cooling System Service

[rbattelle]

My truck is 6 days away from it's 1st birthday. When I bought it, I planned to change out the factory HOAT coolant for good 'ol ethylene glycol. This morning I took the truck to Cummins to have this service done. I wanted to put out here what happened, and get any opinions you may have.



First, I asked for Fleetguard premix ES Compleat ethylene glycol (P/N CC2825). Instead, they put in ES Compleat propylene glycol (P/N CC2835). This worried me, so I asked them about it. They told me that they don't stock any ethylene glycol coolant, and every single truck that comes in gets propylene glycol (including the B series engines). Only if a customer insists on something else (like HOAT or EG) will they make a special order for the stuff. They said Cummins specifically recommends PG for all their engines, claiming that it gives the best performance. It specifically states in my owner's manual, however, that PG is not recommended. The Cummins shop was absolutely perplexed as to why PG was not recommended. 2 different people told me that the last time they were at a Fleetguard class someone asked about mixing HOAT and PG/EG, and they were told there is no problem doing so (except that the color of the coolant will be ugly). I also have an email from Fleetguard stating that they are not aware of any issues mixing their coolant with those from other manufacturers. The bottle of PG states specifically that it is compatible with every other antifreeze on the market, and offers the same performance as EG.



Secondly, they did not actually "flush" my cooling system, as they don't have a coolant flush machine. They drained the radiator, filled with water, drove the truck around the block, then re-drained the radiator and refilled using the aforementioned PG. The tech was able to get about 21 quarts of new coolant in there (recall system capacity is 27 quarts). When I left, I checked under the hood first, and found the overflow reservoir had 1/3 blue PG in it, and 2/3 orange HOAT. I went back and complained, and they drained the overflow for me and refilled with PG. That brought the total new coolant up to about 24 quarts. This implies there are 3 quarts of HOAT still in the block. The tech explained that there was no block drain on the engine, so he was not able to drain the block.



Cummins was not concerned with mixing the HOAT and PG, and assurred me there would be no gelling or anything.



What did all this cost me, you ask? $356. 86.

I know this is long... thanks for reading.

 

[rbattelle]

For those interested, I did find this:



http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/G05-Glysantin.htm

 

[ata]

If it was me and I didn`t get what I had asked for and got a bill like that and a job done like that. I'd still be standing there making all kinds of bad noises. Frist off if they just drained the radiator and refilled it that's only about 1/3 of the coolant. Drove it and did the same thing I`d say you still have about 50/50 mix of old and new coolant. At best you could have 1/3 old and 2/3's new. Man I would be PI$$ed and then some. Reading that other part that you posted it doesn`t sound like this new stuff is real good for protecting Aluminum.

 

[rbattelle]

A lot of times my desire not to "make trouble" for other people gets me into trouble. You're right, ata, I should have complained. But I didn't, and now I have to live with it.

 

[rbattelle]

One other thing

The Cummins people said the Fleetguard stuff is overkill for my engine, because the B-series doesn't have cylinder liners and therefore doesn't need the DCA's (Diesel Coolant Additives) that prevent liner pitting and are already included in the ES Compleat.

 

[FDavid]

First of all I like overkill and 2nd of all if all they did was basically drain the radiator w/o using a flush machine, then this is something you can do at home next time. Just dump the coolant in your neighbors grass

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I'm with FDAVID - overkill is almost enough...



Sounds like you got a real backyard, "shadetree mechanic special"...



Shucks, I might come outta retirement, and specialize in "cooling system servicing" - even one a day would keep beans on the table...

 

[rbattelle]

They said the reason they don't have a flushing machine is the big engines don't need one; they just drain the block and spray high-pressure water into the hole to clean it out. No such block on these engines (block heater is too far forward to be able to get the coolant out).



I went to them because of the problems associated with draining 27 quarts of coolant myself. I learned a very valuable lesson: service your cooling system yourself.

 

[Tony T.]

Antifreeze

Ryan it does seem that DC an Cummins need to get on the same page to me. I have read it also, that it states not to use the PG. We as Cummins owners want the best for our trucks in hopes they will last, an last. I too am very particular about my truck an even so I may not run the best in fluids in other people's minds, it is what is fine an works for me. I myself will be doing my own change on the antifreeze when the time comes to do it,but some are not able to because of not having the facility, or equipment, or know how to do so an have to rely on a professional to do so (I know in your case you were counting on getting it done with a complete flush machine). You would think that if it was printed in the manual, this is the procedure of fluids to use, an thats the way it should be done. That's all we have to go by as owners. So who's to blame if there's a problem later on. You were following instructions according with what you had to work with.

 

[rbattelle]

Re: Antifreeze

Originally posted by Tony T.

Ryan it does seem that DC an Cummins need to get on the same page to me. I have read it also, that it states not to use the PG. We as Cummins owners want the best for our trucks in hopes they will last, an last. I too am very particular about my truck an even so I may not run the best in fluids in other people's minds, it is what is fine an works for me. I myself will be doing my own change on the antifreeze when the time comes to do it,but some are not able to because of not having the facility, or equipment, or know how to do so an have to rely on a professional to do so (I know in your case you were counting on getting it done with a complete flush machine). You would think that if it was printed in the manual, this is the procedure of fluids to use, an thats the way it should be done. That's all we have to go by as owners. So who's to blame if there's a problem later on. You were following instructions according with what you had to work with.

Thanks, Tony, I appreciate that. BTW, I did check the procedure in the service manual, and the procedure that Cummins followed is actually listed as an accepted coolant flush procedure! I guess that's good. And it dawned on me that to use a flush machine you'd have to remove the thermostat, since there's no way these trucks would heat up enough to open the thermostat just sitting there idling (except maybe with an exhaust brake on).



My advice to anyone doing this job themselves, is to use Fleetguard ES Compleat ethylene glycol. My reasons for this advice are:



1. HOAT is nothing more than EG with special additives, so swapping in EG would seem to be quite appropriate. Plus, EG has a slightly higher boiling point and slightly lower freezing point than PG (+222, -27 for PG, +226, -34 for EG at a 50/50 mix).

2. Fleetguard claims their EG and PG are completely compatible with every other antifreeze out there, so even if you don't get 100% of the HOAT stuff out, you shouldn't have any cause for concern.

3. Be sure to drain the overflow tank. It won't drain on it's own during the flush. Easiest thing to do is siphon out the old stuff from the tank.



My plan going forward is to stick with PG for the rest of the vehicle's life. I will add the Fleetguard SCA package yearly, and probably never change the fluid again (until valve adjustment at 350,000 miles).

 

[DPKetchum]

Most shops and most service manuals only state a drain and refill. Not a flush. Thats all I've ever done for years on plastic radiators etc. I personally don't want harsh chemical residue left in the system. I open radiator petcocks and drain and refill. My 6 year old Dodge has NO scale to speak of showing in the radiator. Most coolant NOW is not yearly either but every several(3) years. I drain and refill every two. The manufacturers and epa are trying to keep the stuff in the systems longer for lots of reason.

 

[Dean Upson]

Originally posted by DPKetchum

Most shops and most service manuals only state a drain and refill. Not a flush. Thats all I've ever done for years on plastic radiators etc. I personally don't want harsh chemical residue left in the system. I open radiator petcocks and drain and refill. My 6 year old Dodge has NO scale to speak of showing in the radiator. Most coolant NOW is not yearly either but every several(3) years. I drain and refill every two. The manufacturers and epa are trying to keep the stuff in the systems longer for lots of reason.

I was a bit confused by the yearly requirement, it was my understanding that interval was 3 years, too.



Dean

 

[rbattelle]

Maybe I titled this wrong. There is no yearly requirement for a change in coolant!! I only did it because I wanted to put something other than HOAT in it.

 

[DPKetchum]

Why? Not to beat a dead horse but even my old 93w250 that I sold about 9 months ago I had just repaired the radiator(steel)because a line had rubbed a raw spot in it. I replaced upper and lower hoses then also. Almost no scale at all in radiator,hoses or top housing. It never had a flush or yearly changes. Every two years or so a drain and refill onlyThe life of fliuds today are much longer then in the 60s/70s/80s etc. As far as HOAT I see nothing wrong with it and proberly will go back with it etc. also will proberly go longer then two years as my habit. Times change.

 

[rbattelle]

I don't have a good reason for making the change, except that I wanted something more easily obtainable in an emergency.

 

[DPKetchum]

WATER works great in a emergency.

 

[Bickford]

Good old days?

Hello,



I remember when my Father would open the radiator drain petcock and just drain the antifreeze. While the car was running he added / flushed fresh water in (with the heater on). Until the old antifreeze / coolant coming out was as clear as the water going in. Then he would refill to the right coolant ratio to protect from freezing and boil over.



Now this was in the late 1960's (before the first Earth Day) and we did have a rock driveway that allowed the old antifreeze to just go away. I have been told of a proper? way to dispose of old antifreeze. You need to cut the old antifreeze at a fifty to one ratio with water. Then you could just flush it down the Sewer. I have to tell you that I learned this while in the US Coast Guard. Yes the very same people who used to throw old lead acid batteries in our fresh water Lakes and Streams. Since I buy a new CTD truck each year. You seem to over look the little things, like how nice and clean the brake fluid is in a new truck. Or how DC changes the antifreeze type and or color from year to year. Then the little things like the special $$$ MOPAR six speed gear oil used in my last 2003 CTD HO SRW LWB 3500 SLT.



I do remember that the garden hose ran for a very long time before the two gallon car system was flushed clean. Lets see twenty seven pints or three and a half gallons of coolant. Flushed with a garden hose for three plus hours. That flows maybe seventy gallons of water an hour... At a fifty to one ratio to dispose of in the sewer, makes a 175 gallons of fresh water/ old antifreeze in your driveway / lawn / street. If all of the above was done while running a new CTD engine at idle, with the heater on to flush the coolant in the entire system. You would probably do more harm than good?.





New 2004. 5 CTD SLT LWB silver 2500 auto trans HO 325 - 600

 

[DIESELMAN]

Originally posted by rbattelle

What did all this cost me, you ask? $356. 86.

I know this is long... thanks for reading.

..... And to think my dad told me there was only one born every minute... .....



What were you thinking

 

[Rosco]

rbattelle,



I feel bad for you feller. Here you were just trying to help educate some of us on the different antifreeze's out there and instead your taking a beating.

 

[rbattelle]

Originally posted by Rosco

rbattelle,



I feel bad for you feller. Here you were just trying to help educate some of us on the different antifreeze's out there and instead your taking a beating.

I have thick skin.



Here's the kicker: I'm in Pep Boys last week and what do I see right there on the shelf with all the other coolants? Zerex G-05 coolant (factory fill from Dodge). I did this for easier availability of coolant in an emergency. So much for that! Oh well, live and learn. My only hope is that others will learn from my mistake... LEAVE THE FACTORY FILL ALONE!!