Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) hard starting '96

[mainer]

Hi fellas, this is my first post> My '96 2500 w/ 133,000 miles is presenting one of those randomly occurring problems that'll drive you crazy. Sometimes it starts right up as it should on the 1st attempt. Other times it requires a prolonged period of attempts before it'll start. By prolonged, I mean numerous attempts over a 15 or 20 minute period. Outside temperature, or whether the engine has been shut off for just a few minutes but is still warm seem to make no difference. When it does decide to start, it starts instantly with no stalling, sputtering, or poor performance. This is random, as I said. The lift pump was replaced about 8 or 10,000 miles ago, and the starting condition acts like it did in the weeks previous to that replacement, without the leaking fuel. The fuel filter was replaced by the dealer in late Sept. only a couple thousand miles ago; about the time this problem started to arise. Last week the dealer thought it was a bad fuel starter solenoid and replaced that for over 500 bucks. The problem surfaced again after a couple of days. From another thread I've gathered that the fuel overflow valve can cause hard starting, but there's no accompanying poor performance. Could there be air in the system. It just acts likes it's not getting fuel, and then it starts and runs perfectly. I'd really appreciate some input, and hope none of you guys ever have this problem. Thanks very much. Guy R

 

[HoleshotHolset]

It's possible that the fuel shutdown solenoid isn't getting power... . or it is sticking so that it can't fully pull up on the shutdown mechanism on the injection pump.



If it doesn't start - try pulling up on the plunger after you bump the key in the 'start' position.



There's two coils inside the shutdown solenoid... . one is for the start position and one is for the run position. The start position is only on after you either bump the key in the start position or crank her over for a few seconds. The run position is self explanatory... .



The good news is that you can take this solenoid right out of the truck and it'll still run. In fact - the default position of the injection pump is the 'run' position... . so if things really are bad with the solenoid you can still drive it... . but you'll have to get under the hood to push that lever down to stop the engine.



Lots of folks have got frustrated with the OEM shutdown solenoid and have decided to go with a cable setup... . I'm one of the biggest supporters of this. It's so simple that it hurts... . and I'm big on simplicity.



If you're not sure where the shutdown solenoid is - it is located on the back portion of the injection pump... . all the way up top. It's bolted to the AFC housing with two bolts and one bolt around the backside of the injection pump. It's connected to the shutdown lever on the injection pump with a ball-socket joint and a cotter pin.....



Here's what it all looks like:

#ad




Hope this helps... . and keep us updated... .



Matt

 

[nfox]

Hard Starting

Hvae you replaced the two rubber fuel lines behind the fuel filter, one is 3/8 and the other is 5/16, when one of these gets a crack they will not leak,but let air in. They are kind of a pain to get changed out, and make sure your replacement hoses are diesel fuel approved.

 

[firemanshawn]

I think you dealer hosed you when he replaced the fuel solinoid. these thing almost never go bad. From the symtoms you describe it sounds to me like your fuel shutdown relay is bad, or going bad. if that is not the problem check the little blue wire coming off of the hot side of the drivers side battery. this is the hot wire for the fuel shutdown solinoid. There is a fusible link in this wire that sometimes lets loose, that will cause your truck not to start. Good luck.

 

[mainer]

I will check everything you guys have mentioned. I agree that the dealer hosed me on the fuel starter solenoid. I can't believe I didn't think of the fuel stop solenoid as I have had similar trouble with that on the Isuzu diesel in my boat. That was solved by disconnection and addition of a pull cord for shut off. I still am welcoming any and all advice. Great website. Thanks

 

[shendren]

yep, i would say that solenoid rarely goes. $260 at cummins shop. i would check out the relay, return lines like someone above said, and the overflow valve. are you on your original overflow valve? what is your fuel pressure? you can go to the local dealer and pay $110 for one. or you can get one from marty tompkins for $25 shipped to you. i went with marty.





Precision Diesel Injection and Turbo Inc.

Marty Tompkins

toll free 888-734-7349

$20 + $5 shipping and handling.

 

[mainer]

shendren - I'm guessing it's the original overflow valve. Is changing that rocket science, and how do I set up for checking fuel pressure? Thanks

 

[shendren]

not rocket science. 19mm socket.



do a search on 12v fuel pressure. follow illflem's procedures.



it's easy. i check mine at the pump (bottom right). email -- email address removed -- to get a 12v banjo bolt and snubber valve setup.



then buy a liquid filled guage from grainger.



i used 1/4" tubing with those easy push in connectors. no leaks no fuss.



some vague pics here... ... ... .



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=87178

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I really have to learn to fully read people's posts before replying... instead of the 'skim and reply' method. Sorry 'bout that... .



Ditto on the fuel lines and the overflow valve... . however when these items 'go bad' - they usually don't come and go... . they go bad and that's that.



You never mentioned whether or not you put your foot into the throttle at all when trying to start it.....



Out of curiousity... . What is your idle set to? I have seen trucks start hard from low idle settings (actually, the nut was just worn down over the years... . ).



Matt

 

[mainer]

Matt - I do what it says in the manual for starting below 60 degrees. Push the pedal down about 1/4 of the way upon commencing the cranking. I just got done working, so since it's still light out, I'll go give it a look over. I believe it idles around 900 according to the tach, but I'll check that too. Am I correct in assuming that a bad overflow valve causes poor running, and smoking along w/ hard starting - because she runs perfectly when she starts? Guy

 

[HoleshotHolset]

The smoking and poor performance is almost always due to bad fuel delivery. The overflow valve restricts flow back to the tank - thus keeping the pressure up inside the injection pump.



If your overflow valve (located on the front of the injection pump... . right by the cylinder head... . basically a banjo bolt with a spring and a check ball inside... . ) is the type that can be taken apart - you could stretch the spring to 0. 55" and hopefully temporarily restore pressure until you can get a new valve.



Not having the proper pressure with your injection pump will cause the engine to run like dog manure. You should have 30-35psi of pressure at the inlet of the injection pump.



The rubber lines that everyone's talking about are a real big culprit as well... they let in small amounts of air that translate into hard/no starts.



After I replaced my lines I could NOT get my truck to run at all. I used the really heavy duty USCG diesel rated hose and clamped the daylights out of it. After I double clamped and retightened everything - I could prime it and it has run fine ever since.



I did not have any symptoms of cracked lines, but when I took them off to replace them... I was glad that I did... . they were dangerously close to being cracked to the point where they would start to leak.



Matt

 

[mainer]

Yes, I know about the rubber fuel lines, as one of them was leaking last Spring, and I had it replaced... hmmm... what about the other one??>



Anyways, this is getting interesting. The dealer told me he replaced the "fuel starter solenoid", and the invoice, which I'm reading now states that they found the "throttle fuel solenoid bad", and they installed a new " #SA498112 Syncro Start S" at $327. 60 (just for the part). Well, upon inspection, the thing that they actually replaced is the stopper solenoid that we've been discussing and is in Holeshot's diagram! Am I confused - aren't there 2 different solenoids? I'm sorry to be so stupid about this, and really appreciate your patience.



25 minutes later..... I got my daughter to bump the key while I watched the NEW fuel stop solenoid. It fails repeatedly to move the lever up into the "run" position. I've talked w/ the service dept. and they're going to look it over on Friday. Hopefully another solenoid will be the cure, but that manual cable idea is very appealing to me. Do you suppose they'll go along with that... I doubt it. Thank you all very much.

 

[DMC]

Mainer: I went through the almost identical symtoms with my 96 at first it would get progressively harder to start as the temperature would drop in the fall. Then I checked the shutdown solenoid, then I replaced the overflow valve after doing the stretch the spring trick on the old one, then I changed both the suction and return fuel lines. And no more starting problems. I don't even plug it in anymore unless the temps are going to be at freezing or below. I never have to feather the pedal anymore either. One last thing if you have no trouble starting after it has sat for a short period of time, and only is hard to start after it sits for say 5 or 6 hours then you probably have a bad return line and overflow valve. If my truck sat for a long time I would manually pump the fuel prime button until I heard the overflow valve pop off, and then it will crank easier. I did this to save my starter until I did the fuel lines. One word of advice on the fuel lines prepare yourself for an exercise in mental cruelty for the return line. You do want to get good quality fuel line so you wont have to do it again for a long long time.



I hope this helps



Don

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Mainer said: "It fails repeatedly to move the lever up into the "run" position.&quot

That's just what I was waiting to hear!



Can that POS solenoid and install a cable shutdown. You'll never have this problem EVER again.



There is only one shutdown solenoid... . there is a relay that controls this solenoid... . but if you go with a cable, you don't care if this relay works or not.



While you're in a 12-valve problem solving mood - contact Larry B and get yourself some new starter contacts... . that way your starter won't hang up after you crank her over. You don't need a new plunger... . just wire brush your old one clean.



Matt



On edit: Your truck is WAY out of warranty - who cares what the dealer thinks?! Cancel your appointment, install the cable, and be done with it.

 

[shendren]

i second that matt.



while at larry b's, i bought the fuel return package and took it to the dealer. i just couldn't get ****** off again. they did it for $90.

 

[krs]

I wonder if you can get your money back. They can keep their solenoid.

 

[Andy Redmond]

You **&%%^^^(((7%%% eccentric yankee's can't let a gadget do anywork for you only the hardway! What do you do when the road salt and calcium cloride rust your manual cable open or closed?





Oh well, enough grief to our northern friends, did the dealer think to change the solenoid relay (about $50) or check the wiring to the solenoid carefully?



You can order the 70amp relay from Larry B or others, should you decide not to go the dealer route.



Good luck

Andy

 

[Joe G.]

I have to agree with Andy. The fuel solenoid works just fine. If there is some problem some elementary trouble shooting will find what is wrong. Hardly ever is it the solenoid. Lots of posts on how to do the simple tests to isolate the problem. No sense spending any money until you know what is wrong. Mine is still working fine after 228K miles. That is a lot of starts. A pull cable would be admitting failure to me.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I not admitting failure. I'm improving on a very failure prone design. Sure, I could buy a solenoid repair kit... . and fuss with a rubber boot that's going to deteriorate again and again.....



That solenoid fell apart in my hands when I took it off the truck one day. I very calmly put it in a ziplock bag and stored it with the rest of the poorly designed crap on my truck.



As for the cable rusting out or getting stuck. It's a straight shot from the business end to the handle end on my setup... . it ain't gonna get kinked... . AND I don't remember the last time I saw road salt anywhere near my injection pump.



Take the number of people complaining about their solenoids and compare that to the number of people complaining that their cable has stuck or caused them any problems at all. You will quickly realize that there are literally zero problems with this setup. The simplest solution is often the best. Spend $30 or less on a cable... . or fuss with the OEM setup... . it's up to you which to go with.



Not having that solenoid in the way makes getting at the 'fun' parts of the pump very easy... . much easier than OEM.



Besides - real dieselheads shutdown their mechanically injected engines with a cable, not a key.



Matt

 

[JJW_ND]

JMHO

I think the cable route is OK but I don't think it is the solution. 99. 9% of the fuel shut off solenoid problems are not the solenoid.



Recently when installing a head-gasket, the shop mech doing the work had the solenoid fall apart in his hands when putting it back on (had the side cover gasket replaced). I told him it has done that to me every time I have had it off and it works fine. Still factory original, looks like *****, boot is shot ... but works fine.



I think the blue wire (power source) connection on the battery and the relay are more the problem.



Again... the cable is not a bad idea and I am sure it is trouble free, but the solenoid can be trouble free also.



jjw

ND