Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Hard starting cold at high altitude

[walkabout]

This is my first time to post so here goes. My pickup seems to have a hard start problem and seems to be altitude sensitive. I live at 4500 ft elevation and it starts OK down to 20 deg, 10 deg harder, 0 is no go with out being plugged in. I go to the mountains a lot for recreation and there aren’t very many places to plug in and that is when the problem starts. Above 7500 ft it will not start below 30 deg. At 40 deg I will have to cycle the grid heaters three times (the higher the altitude the harder it starts). When it does start it acts very flooded and it will take a few minutes to clear out (looks like a pulling truck because of the smoke). I’m sure it is over fueling but I don’t know what else to check. I’ve had it setting next to identical pickups (we fueled at the same place) and they will start first time and I will have to be jump started because the batteries play out before it will start.



Now for the things that I have done and tried. I took it to a dealer and he found that the injectors and lift pump weren’t up to par so he replaced them. That helped a little but didn’t cure it. I thought that it might be a temp sensor so I checked them, thought it might be the MAP sensor and the voltage to and from it was within specs. I thought it might be the heat grids and they both pull almost 60 amps. It is all stock but doesn’t run like it because it runs real strong. I have always got a lot of smoke every time I shift, which I don’t mind as long as it isn’t contributing to the starting problem.



I’ve been checking the TDR site often and I think there is a lot of expertise out there so maybe you can help. The local dealers are stumped and so am I. So any help would be appreciated.

Also, does anyone know if you can use starting fluid if the heater grids are disabled? I have been tempted a time or two.



Thanks

Mark

 

[jrandol]

walkabout, welcome to the TDR!!!



I am a transplant that came from Colorado. I had similar problems like you experienced but they were multiplied with my truck at 10k feet and my HP level during Elk Season. I think the bottom line is these things are quenching for air up there. They need much more air than a gasser and until mixtures of fuel and air can be calibrated after a few seconds or sometimes minutes of hard running we just have to suffer.

 

[JJW_ND]

Something is not right???

The temperaturs you describe sound like what my truck did without one grid heater working.



Does your volt gauge move (almost pegs the needle) alot when the grids are sapose to be on?



You can check if only one is working by removing one of the two heavy wires that connect onto the intake (right in front of intake horn). How does the volt meter react. Do the save for the other.



If tis is it... . most likely the solinoids on the driver side fender are bad. They replace as a complete unit.



The other things that really help with cold weather starting are thinner oil. Especailly if you can not plug in. Engine spins much faster... you have much more cranking time to get it started not to mention alot less wear when temps get below -10. THe newer group III " synthetics" are not that bas a price. Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme (5W40) or Rotella 5W40 are some. ALso check what you local Caterpiller dealer sells there DEO 5W40 oil. It is really Mobil Delvac 5W40 ... a real synthetic and very good oil. ALso, a good additive helps get things fired much quicker. I have had really good like with Stanadyne (add it even it you do not need the antigell help).



You should be able to start w/o plugged in down to -15. Not starting at zero is a Ford problem, not normal with out trucks.



jjw

ND

 

[walkabout]

Thanks guys for the ideas. The only thing that I haven’t done is take the intake horn off and physically looked at the grids to see if they are both heating. I did how ever put a amp gauge in line of both grids to see what amps they were pulling and I thought that they were working right. I will pull the intake and make sure that they are both heating.



JJW-ND your are right in that “0 degs” is a Ford problem. That is one of the main reasons I chose the Cummings. I had an old Chevy 6. 2 that started about the same and that was good for that engine. But it is kind of embarrassing to have a newer Dodge and be drug through the parking lot of Fords and Chevys because it won’t start at 20 above. You are also right about the synthetic oils and I have had the truck on synthetic oils for two years.

 

[JFinke]

Once you start using either it will get hooked on it and need it in warmer and warmer weather. A little to much and you can kiss your compression rings goodbye.

 

[BarryG]

You mentioned the grids were pulling 60 amps. I thought they were supposed to pull more like 90 amps each. If I can remember I will check the service manual tonight when I get home.

 

[GiesJ]

Walkabout -

all right, a fellow wyomingite!

I'm at 7200' and do not have the problems you are seeing. I think, as others have suggested, that something is amiss with your grid heaters.

Good luck and shoot me a PM if there is anything I can do to help.

Jason

ps - where you at in WYO? there is a big RMTDR get-together in Denver in a couple weeks...

 

[walkabout]

Thanks Barry I’d like to know what the amps are supposed to be for sure. I wasn’t using a real good amp gauge so it could be off. I will get a better meter and check it again. Tonight I did take the intake horn off and did a visual as I cycled the grid heaters. They both heated up all right although not as fast as I would have thought. It was about 25 deg outside, they cycled for about 30 seconds and they were hot but not red, waited for about minute and cycled them again and this time they both turned red. I guess it could be possible that the solenoids are not making 100% power transfer. So it would help to know exactly what they are supposed to be drawing.



Thanks



Mark

 

[BarryG]

Sorry I forgot to check last night when I got home. But just sent myself an email reminder. Will get you the info tonight.

 

[Lordsman]

additives

Try an additive. I've had the same problems at 9000ft/20 degrees. If I remember to add some Stanadyne starting seems easier.

Although, at 0 degrees in Denver, I start up no problem with a few grid cycles(not plugged in). I did dump the factory batteries and installed Optimas(Grey top/blems) a few years back though.

I think my problem was a combo of factory batteries and winter diesel fuel, hence the battery upgrade/additive.

Good luck, it's COLD up in that there Wyoming winter!

 

[BarryG]

Walkabout:



Here it is from an 01 service manual

"Two heavy-duty cables connect the 2 air heater elements to the 2 air heater relays. Each of these cables will supply approximately 95 amps at 12 volts to an individual heating element within the heater block assembly. " So I read that as 95 amps per heater which is a far cry from 60.



On the following page the IAT (intake air temp) sensor is what tells the ECM what the intake air temp is and depending on that reading the ecm controls the grid heaters. So if you haven't checked your IAT sensor you might check that to make sure that it is reading the correct voltage. I do not know what the different voltages are for the different temps that it should read but if I recall there was thread on here a quite a while back that gave those readings of what they should be and a testing procedure for it.



Hope this helps

 

[walkabout]

Thanks a lot guys,



I will check my amp draw again and make sure of what it is. I am thinking that that might be some if not all of my problem.



Thanks BarryG



Thanks Lordsman,



I do use an Amsoil additive for cold start and one for Cetane boost. But I was thinking about my batteries as they are the stock batteries and are almost four years old now.



something to think about



thanks

Mark

 

[Tomscreek]

My truck is very hard to start when it gets to about 0 degrees and I'm staying at the ranch (6000'). At home (3500') it starts much better. I'm convinced that altitude plays a role. Dealer said no way it could but I don't think he knows.

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Tomscreek

Dealer said no way it could but I don't think he knows.

I can guarantee you he doesn't know!



A diesel is a compression ignition engine. In order to ignite the fuel, the air in the cylinder at the time of fuel injection must be at a temperature higher than the flash point of the diesel fuel. The temperature of the compressed air in the cylinder at the time of injection is a function of:



1. Air density (lower at high altitudes). This is why you hear some people complain about hard starting of cold engines at 10,000+ ft altitudes, even in the summertime.



2. Ambient air temperature (a lower air temperature at the beginning of compression means a lower air temperature at the time of fuel injection). This is why the Cummins has grid heaters.



Rusty

 

[BarryG]

Walkabout:

Here are a couple places that give the readings for the IAT at different temps:



http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/sensors/IAT/clean.htm



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11618&highlight=marco

 

[jkern]

make sure you don't use ether. if you are using ether you need to disable the grid heaters. when the engine sucks that ether past those hot grids its chances of combusting are great and it will blow the intake horn right off the engine and probably a few other important parts. otherwise sounds to me like there is something wrong, i have had mine at 10000 feet and 10 degrees, it was hard to start, and smoked and coughed alot, but it did start ok.

 

[walkabout]

Thanks for the info BarryG



I will check into the IAT sensor

 

[walkabout]

Still working in it.



Installed new batteries.



Checked grid heaters and they are working correct.



Changed the IAT Sensor and got no change.



Dealer suggested relocating the IAT sensor so it dose not see the heated air from the grids… Didn’t work.





Took 30 minutes and a jump to get started last weekend at an elevation of 10,000 ft and a temp of +20deg.





Mark

 

[InThinAir]

I would have thought that the New batteries would make a difference. I live at a few feet under 10k, 9834, outside of Denver. Never really had too much of an issue with starting but I am plugged in most of the time overnite. But on the weekend I may forget and it starts down to pretty cold. But I would definately recommend that you switch to a synthetic if you are not able to plug in on a regular basis down below 20 degrees. I have not switched yet, but I have 3 gallons of premium blue waiting to go in because my stock batteries are gettin a little age on them and don't get the truck going as quick as I would like.



But I have never noticed any impact of the elevation on starting my trucks. It does billow smoke on the way up to the house when the boost is too low.





---Doug

 

[walkabout]

Possibly Fixed

Well, I think that I may have finally got the problem fixed. I tried every thing that I could do in my shop and got nowhere with it. Took the truck back to the dealer and he did some more checking and wound up changing the injector pump. He said that it had an open circuit in the pump. It dose run different and it doesn’t smoke near as much as it did before, and seems to start better because it doesn’t seem to be over fueling. The down side is that it seems to have lost a little power when WOT. Just a good reason to talk the wife into chipping it

It may be nearly a year before I know for sure since the weather isn’t cold enough now to give it a real test, but I’m thinking positive.