Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) hate to beat a dead horse but...

[rivercat]

Need head advise,

I don't want to ever twin this one but would like to dabble with water/meth and N20 so...

I am sure I WANT to stud and O-ring but need some details.

Any one have an idea of what a head weighs packed for shipping?

how do you tourqe the studs into the holes- fingertite or more?

where to get and what length bottom tap?

how whould you tourqe a stock manifold with the dog bones and spacers? -so far no leaks or cracks

what are the odds that my head isn't straight? <80K on it < 30K of it was above stock boost - my "by the book" boy at the freightshaker dealer/shop says he RARELY ever has to deck one and thats only on high (250k+) mile engines.


Any other valuable info on install would be greatly appreciated. Not many goods threads on this

 

[CumminsAholic]

My head weighed 180 pounds in a pine box that I built to ship it in. The box wasn't very heavy, the head is. The studs don't get any tighter than finger tight. A standard length bottom tap works, if you can't find a bottom tap, get a regular one and grind the end off so it's not tapered and you have a bottom tap. As fas as torquing the srock manifold, I don't have my fsm here, but I'm sure somebody will chime in.

Corey

 

[WadePatton]

My vendor (Haisley Machine) supplied excellent install instructions with the stud kit. Would be nice if they'd include the tap. But do as mentioned and grind the taper off a standard tap, if you can't procure the proper bottoming tap.



I wrenched my back doing the tapping. Added about a week to the job. That is the biggest PITA part of doing studs. Well on the 12v I had to do some grinding to get the valve covers back on. Ground covers and studs. I recommend a "topside" creeper. I got one a little too late. Don't get in a rush doing the re-tapping. I used garden hose on the shop vac to clean the tap and holes. Compressed air will little bits of metal into places you might not want it.



Remember that there are plugged holes in the firewall to get #'s 5 and 6 pushrods out.



Check head and block for flatness. Have ring grooves cut by someone with experience.



Enjoy.

 

[rivercat]

wow 180lbs woulda never guessed having not taken mine off yet that it was that meaty. sounds seriously expensive to ship:{

 

[CumminsAholic]

Yeah, you'll either want a friend or a cherry picker to take the head off. To put it back on I used a cherry picker, it was easier to keep the head away from the gasket so I didn't nick it. I think the shipping was like $150??

 

[rivercat]

Are the o-rings themselves hard to install ? as in keep alighned till you get the head on square and tourqued? can the head be removed again later for a cam install without messing anything up?

 

[WadePatton]

Don't need to pull the head for camshaft installation.



I got my stuff from Haisley's. The head gasket is cut for the firerings and pretty much holds them in place when lowering the head on. You go slowly--with a hoist--and you'll hear some of the rings "clink" into place as you tighten things up.



That truck is only making 46 or so PSI, so the rings haven't been really tested, but they're in there for if/when the need arises.

 

[Cummins724]

I got my head cut for fire rings @ Advance Diesel Technology in W. V. He actually got the whole job & did it at a good price. He just changed my engine over since the 53 block cracked & did the fire rings while it was out. I checked around & he was the cheapest I found to do the job. I'm not sure where you are located, but It's worth talking to Doug. 304-864-3399 He does good work.

 

[CumminsAholic]

Fire rings are different than o-rings. Yes the o-rings will stay in place. There's a groove cut in the head and a piece of wire is pounded into that groove, it will not fall out. Whoever cuts the grooves for the o-rings will cut that wire to length and pound it into the groove, you don't have to do it. If you ever take the head off again, they'll still stay in the head. You want to drop the head down right the first time though, the more you move it the more of a chance of damaging the gasket. I used a couple studs to get it aligned before I dropped it down.

Corey

 

[Cummins724]

Fire rings are different than o-rings. Yes the o-rings will stay in place. There's a groove cut in the head and a piece of wire is pounded into that groove, it will not fall out. Whoever cuts the grooves for the o-rings will cut that wire to length and pound it into the groove, you don't have to do it. If you ever take the head off again, they'll still stay in the head. You want to drop the head down right the first time though, the more you move it the more of a chance of damaging the gasket. I used a couple studs to get it aligned before I dropped it down.

Corey

What is the difference between the 2? I'm sorry, but I always thought that they were one in the same. Do fire rings get grooves cut in the head? Which is stronger? Sorry for the questions, but I ask them when I don't know.

 

[CumminsAholic]

Fire rings get a groove cut in the head and corresponding groove cut in the block. The stock fire ring is cut out of the factory head gasket, and a new fire ring is used. Think of it as a #8 wire that fits into the 2 grooves. It's way bigger than an o-ring. It replaces the factory fire ring on the head gasket.



An o-ring is usually only done on the head. (But can also be done on the block) A groove is cut and a small wire (if fire rings are #8 maybe o-rings are #18) is put into the groove. This wire sticks down from the head and pushes down on the fire ring on the factory head gasket putting more pressure on it to make it seal better.



Fire rings will hold more boost, but are probably overkill for most of us. They are also a lot more money unless you have a good buddy that can do them. I know that just the cutters that they use to cut the grooves aren't cheap.

Jim Fulmer has o-rings and runs/ran 80 pounds of boost, so if o-rings are done right they will hold some boost.



Hope this helps, I wish I had some pics... I'll try to find some.

Corey

 

[Cummins724]

Thanks for helping... . I guess that I editted my sig wrong cause I have O-rings.

 

[CumminsAholic]

Fire Rings. . http://www.haisleymachine.com/Head Gaskets & Studs.htm



Here's a pic of a head with the grooves for o-rings http://piersdiesel.com/DodgePortedHead.htm



Doug ported and o-ringed my head too. http://www.smokindiesel.com

 

[Cummins724]

How much boost ya running? Do you like the orings?

 

[CumminsAholic]

I like the o-rings, they've worked good so far. I should have listened to Doug and retorqued again when I had an oil leak, But I had done it 3 times already, so I thought I blew a gasket so I pulled the head and when it got it off the gasket was fine. I put a new gasket on anyways and now have a souvenier on the shop wall. It's neat to show people the dent in the fire ring that the o-rings left though. I can hit 50 sometimes, but usually I'm around 46-47lbs. I need more fuel. I'm looking for a tst comp to replace my current fueling box as I think it'll fuel a lot harder than what I have. I did put down 513hp and 1016 ft lbs on the dyno a couple weeks ago though. My goal is to get it to 600 before the next time on the dyno. I think with a comp and some water/meth I should be close, but may need a hrvp44 and some mach 4. 5... we'll see.

Corey

 

[WadePatton]

For the ultimate in clarity or maximum muddiness , I must say that I didn't have the block machined for firerings. Only the head. I think I followed the directions. 'Posed to be good for 80 psi or so. Doing good to make 46 or 7, but then it's the wife's truck.



So I was planning ahead for when the wife gets tired of that ride...

 

[rivercat]

Is there a special sequence to torquing this head like a SB chevy where you start in the middle and work your way out? Im sure this will get mixed replys

SB chevy :

#ad

 

[CumminsAholic]

Yes there is. You also have to do it in stages, IE 60 then 90 then 120, then 140 ft lbs ( if ya want to push it) I went to 140, I was waiting for a stud to snap, but none did. You basially start in the middle and work your way out. You should really order a factory service manual, it'll be a very good investment. Every nut, bolt, touque spec, backlash... . everything is in it. Some guyslike to stay one step behind on the outside rows to keep more pressure in the middle to set the rings better?



I thought for firerings to be "the ultimate" you had to to both the head and block? I guess 80 psi is plenty though.

Corey

 

[WadePatton]

FSM--worth the $ !



26 bolts in our head I do believe. After three or four torqings, you'll know the names of each one. :-laf



If I had the block out, then I'd think about grooving it. Hope I ne'er e'er have a block out.