Head stud install today, ?s about diff install techniques

[Todd1113]

So I'm going to be installing arp head studs today in my 06. Been reading all the different install threads and it seems everyone has a different way they like to do it. Instructions say 100-125lbs in 10 lb increments then break loose and retorque 4 times. Some folks install to top torque, let engine heat up and then torque again after cooling. Also read folks will torque up to 135 lbs and leave it alone.
So what is best? Don't want to have to take this thing apart a lot of times to retorque. Was thinking torque to 135 lbs and even if they stretch a little they should still be above the recommended 125.

 

[Tuesdak]

If any of the studs go into coolant a thread sealer is important. Using them on 6.2's I tighten the studs into the block after a coating of blue lock tight on block threads only. 6.2's are known to leak coolant into the oil without thread sealer on ARP's. I then take the torque up in 3 steps to the top torque depending on their lube or 30 weight oil as that makes a difference. Other thread sealers also work. I do not retorque as modern head gaskets don't need it. (It would be a royal PIA to do anyway on a 6.2.)

I have used double nutting to get the studs really tight and on another engine just the supplied allen hand tool. The risk of too tight is dimpling the metal around the bolt hole creating a high spot. I am not comfortable with the studs being hand tight in the engine esp with the lock tight treatment as it can break loose during final torque and there goes the seal. So I recommend the hand tool rather than the overkill I did with double nutting.

Again advice for 6.2's so YMMV.

 

[Motorhead]

I would tend to follow the manufacturer instructions seeing as they are the ones that make them and test them. Why would you think that "Tighter is Better?" Just curious......

 

[AH64ID]

Many many many engine builders torque the 425's to 135-150. On my truck the shop put them at 150 after rebuilding my motor.

When I did mine I did one at at time in 3 phases to 105 lbs. When they were all done I went back around in 3 passes with about 30 minutes between at 115 then 125. I then turned the block heater on for about 6 hours and re-did them at 125 and called it good.

OEM bolt torque is about 105, so you are not increasing the torque on the gasket until all the bolts are replaced with studs.

 

[Tuesdak]

I would tend to follow the manufacturer instructions seeing as they are the ones that make them and test them. Why would you think that "Tighter is Better?" Just curious......

The ARP manufacturer instructions followed to the letter cause coolant in oil problems for 6.2's. (Not a word about thread sealer in the instructions.) Therefore they are INCOMPLETE instructions! So the manufacturer isn't the last word especially when others get better results by different procedures or techniques. This applies to many other incomplete or bad advice from the manufacturer like "lifetime oil fills"...

Again the lube used on the stud nuts require a different torque value depending on what is used as friction with 30 weight engine oil is higher than the ARP lube thus requiring more torque to get the same clamping force.

In the case of ARP and other OEM torque values is it a good idea to see if there are updated torque values. For example I loose count of the number of revisions the torque spec on the axle nut for the half shaft on a front hub bearing has gone through for a 1990's era GM 4x4.

 

[Motorhead]

SO you are saying that ARP didn't tell people to put sealer on a "Wet" head stud when if they really knew what they were doing, they WOULD have put sealer on them? So because they didn't tell people about stud sealer for a completely different engine, a LIGHT duty V8 diesel, that means that ARP doesn't know the proper torque for a REAL Diesel, 6 cylinder medium duty truck engine? People that make their own decisions against the manufacturer is the reason that POWER mowers have BLADE brake engine stallers so when the fool puts his hand under the deck, he doesn't get it cut off. I have used ARP head studs in diesel VW's turned up above stock HP and torqued them to Mfgr specs with the proper thread lube and never lost a head gasket or leaked under severe conditions.
If you have Validated, UPDATED torque specs to give another member then by all means give them.

 

[AH64ID]

There are no wet studs on our blocks.


Use the ARP lube and use lots of it! If you feel any popping or binding back the nut off and start over.

Motorhead, which manufacturer are you talking about? Your first post makes it sound like you are talking about ARP, but the second it looks like Cummins.

 

[HHhuntitall]

..... and be sure to use lube on the washer and nut, too, especially under the nut and washer where they turn, so correct torque is applied to tightening the nut, not fighting the turning. As for myself, I torque to 30, 60, 90, then go to 120, and check again after a heat cycle. I presume you are replacing them one at a time?

As for factory specs, FSM uses the following description:

Tighten bolts in the following steps:
(a) Torque bolts to 70 N·m (52 ft. lbs.)
(b) Back off 360 degrees in sequence
(c) Torque bolts to 105 N·m (77 ft. lbs.)
(d) Re-check all bolts to 105 N·m (77 ft. lbs.)
(e) Tighten all bolts an additional 1⁄4 turn (90°)

Also, there should only be one stud that needs to either be trimmed or the cover clearance to clear the stud once installed. It is #24 on the rear of the head, Driver side, IIRC. The rest should clear. If they don't you may not be getting the studs seated all the way, and may need to tap the threads in the block to get them down all the way. Sometimes it's a problem, sometimes not.

 

[AH64ID]

When doing one at a time you don't want to reduce any of the existing clamping force on the gasket, which is why I do my first torque to 105. 77 + 90° works out to about 105.

The OEM procedure is for a new gasket, the 52 and back off is for the new gasket and doesn't need to be done with an installed gasket.

 

[Todd1113]

Thanks guys. I got it all buttoned up a few hours ago. I did one at a time with first torque to 100 lbs then after all were replaced I went back and did 115, 125, and finally 135.

 

[Motorhead]

When doing one at a time you don't want to reduce any of the existing clamping force on the gasket, which is why I do my first torque to 105. 77 + 90° works out to about 105.

The OEM procedure is for a new gasket, the 52 and back off is for the new gasket and doesn't need to be done with an installed gasket.

I should have added ARP instead of ​manufacturer.

 

[Tuesdak]

SO you are saying that ARP didn't tell people to put sealer on a "Wet" head stud when if they really knew what they were doing, they WOULD have put sealer on them? So because they didn't tell people about stud sealer for a completely different engine, a LIGHT duty V8 diesel, that means that ARP doesn't know the proper torque for a REAL Diesel, 6 cylinder medium duty truck engine? People that make their own decisions against the manufacturer is the reason that POWER mowers have BLADE brake engine stallers so when the fool puts his hand under the deck, he doesn't get it cut off. I have used ARP head studs in diesel VW's turned up above stock HP and torqued them to Mfgr specs with the proper thread lube and never lost a head gasket or leaked under severe conditions.
If you have Validated, UPDATED torque specs to give another member then by all means give them.

Exactly. If I follow ARP's directions to the letter that come in the box specific to the "wet" stud engine - not a peep about thread sealer. So am I violating manufacturer (ARP) instructions by adding thread sealer? ARP has since "revised" instructions now include use "ARP thread sealer" on wet holes. Well, the ARP stuff leaks and experience of others use other sealers that work. Including some that go to an extreme of orings on the studs to keep them sealed. (Oring under the washer with a groove milled in each head bolt hole.) I did mention that pulling 6.2 heads isn't fun. :-laf

So, again, I disagree that the OEM/supplier/etc. always knows best. I have been on the bleeding edge before revisions came out way to many times and learned the hard way. Validated, UPDATED?! Better question is "What is working?" And that is what makes forums useful.

I own a Cummins 5.9 for a reason and know exactly what a 6.2 is/isn't. (More than I want to.) Won't hurt my feelings calling it what it is. It's a fun hot rod toy now and cheap to drop a surplus engine in when blown up. The 1993 is on it's 3rd engine and this one's been out 2 times. Used to be a 6.5.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Well, when using one ABOVE (to put it mildly) manufacturers specs, experience begins to speak above factory specs. What works and doesn't is either a highly calculated formulation, or a trial and error basis. I've done both, but had more fun with trial and error..... I lifted my first head in '98, at 21 years old.... I also migged together one of the first twin turbo setups in a Dodge Cummins (that I know of) in this area, mostly with the coaching of an old hand, J.W. "Pete" Peterson and Larry ?Simpson at Cummins Southern Plains...... Trial and error lead to an impressive 624hp to the rear tires.... I used all that HP to drive into a church a few months later....

 

[Motorhead]

Partial Quote " I used all that HP to drive into a church a few months later...." How'd THAT work out for you?

 

[HHhuntitall]

Partial Quote " I used all that HP to drive into a church a few months later...." How'd THAT work out for you?

Ummm, about $24K damage to the building, and a totaled truck... Also had to argue with a cop to finish picking up the Bibles and hymnals I knocked over in the baptistry..... Three climbed in, two got thrown out and one stayed to supervise..... Somehow, only through the grace of God, I didn't go to jail that night.... it was a long walk, but I was glad to go home. Kinda put a damper in my big HP playing for a few years. Finally got another '96 a few years later, and built it up pretty nice. Finally got tired of breaking crap.... first the RAM clutch, then an input shaft, then a pinion yoke, then axle shafts, then transmission mounts...... the list is still building. I will say, though, my '92 F350 runs a lot better with a 5.9 than it did with a 7.3.....

Headstuds are prolly a waste on it today, but they're there if I ever change my mind. I usually stud anything I build for myself.... Just in case, ya know?