Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Head work needed for Twins?

[Eric Lee]

1. For the people that have twins or are planning twins - what supporting mods did/will you perform to handle the increased boost?



2. Who's and which set up do/plan to have and how much max boost?



3. Injectors you use/want?



4. What head work did/do you think will be necessary?



5. If you've allready blown a head gasket, what upgrades did you have and what pressure did it blow at?



I've been trading with Piers and plan on his towing twins using the PDR35/14wg I already have my Jammer 2's to start with. I'll try to keep it under 50lbs for now with just the 12mm stud upgrade.



Thanks in advance - Eric

 

[KKlingbeil]

injectors

Im no expert by any mean, but i am really douting wether the jammer 2's will be enough to spool the two. If you plan on just keeping the jammer 2's, all you would really need is the top turbo in the towing twin setup by piers. then if you decide to step up to some huge injectors then you can buy the other turbo and all the tubing at that time. Its up to you, and depends how much money you have to blow, and if you have lots to blow then get some mach 5's or mach 6's from F1 injectors. There are many guys on here that run mach 4's pretty safely and towing with an HTB2 or killer b2. When talking about the head gasket, i know of a guy that truck pulls and runs 62 pounds on stock head gasket, and not sure but would assume the arp 12mm studs. Some people get away with it, other blow um at 35 to 38. I think that the biggest thing is knowing that EVERYTHING is completely warmed up, aka water and OIL before attempting high boost on any kind of head gaskets, stock or o-ringed. Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[**ICEMAN**]

save yourself alot of trouble and o-ring the head.

1250 degree egt's max with drag comp on 5x5, WOT, 65 lbs boost with mods in sig below

 

[BillGotthelf]

Twins won't run with those injectors. Way to much air for the fuel that you would get. Good info on the 12mm's and stock head gasket. If you really want to play fire ring the head. With the 12mm you should be good up to 75lbs of boost. With my setup I am running up to 80lbs without any trouble.

 

[Bandit1]

unless you are going to do the 14mm studs do an oring job, very reliable. installation is everything, take your time.

 

[Bandit1]

orings in the head are easier and cheaper and more reliable with the 12mm studs, fire rings to insure sealing need the clamping force of the 14mm studs. retorques are everything, giving the rings time to seat.

 

[Todd T]

you should plan on a valve job to freshen it up and milling the head to get it good and straight. O rings are fine, i went with Fire rings just because that is what the shop i took the head to was used to doing.



upgraded boots on the intercooler and intake pipes.



Exhaust. depending on what setup you go with you should plan to upgrade to 5" exhaust. is the Banks monster 5"?



12mm head studs, bottoming tap and clean everything up good.



injectors are really the last step and should be used to fine tune the setup. your builder should be able to guide you on what sizes will work with each setup.



you'll probably run right through that converter so better budget some more trany work and that open rear diff wont serve you too well either LOL



Oh' and good tires. I can break mine loose in fifth gear @ 55MPH should have seen that tire salesman's face when we went on that test ride (long story)



I have PDR's street/strip twins with 180hp injectors (too small) and can run 60lbs @ 1150* on level 7 of the PM3. I can yank my 7800lb trailer to highway speed on an entrance ramp with 20lbs of boost at 1000* runs down the road at 800-900* loaded and 500* empty.

 

[Eric Lee]

This is all the stuff I need to know. It is really nice to have TDR as a major info resource - I'm sure I would be wondering around in the dark without you guys.



My horse runs so darn well just the way she is that I'm seriously having second thoughts about screwing with her for this next level of performance. I've found that even with an auto that these trucks need to be monitored and driven. - It's alive!!!

Not that I ever let anyone drive her 'cause I don't, it would take 15 minutes to give a gas driver instruction.



Now it's getting warmer and I can open the passenger window - it's like music. I catch myself turning the radio off all the time just to listen.



I'm keeping an eye on this thread and I'm listening - Thanks



-ERic

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Oh' and good tires. I can break mine loose in fifth gear @ 55MPH should have seen that tire salesman's face when we went on that test ride (long story)



QUOTE]





I want to hear about this...

 

[Todd T]

Oh' and good tires. I can break mine loose in fifth gear @ 55MPH should have seen that tire salesman's face when we went on that test ride (long story)



QUOTE]





I want to hear about this...

I'll try to shorten it since I'm in the middle of poor Eric's thread here. I needed new back tires. i went to a chain store and told the guy I wanted something that would wear out fast, IE softer compound. he sold me a set of Cooper Discoverer ATS's. i made it about 10 miles from the shop and nearly wrecked the truck due to the tread walking around on them. i returned to the tire store and the assistant manager overheard and explained he had the same problem with those before and that they should not have sold me those. they agreed to pull them back off and trade me up for some Goodyear's (E Rated, i dont recall the model)



well, during all of this the shop kid came in and was asking about the truck, he saw the 5" exhaust and guages. i told him about the twins and that i had around 525HP yata yata yata... . well it was agreed the assistant manager would take the truck for a test drive to make sure the problem was fixed with the new tires.



they got it all wrapped up and the young kid comes in and tells the manager, he was going on the test ride with the assistant. he was then informed i requested to go with them (for obvious reasons) and he couldnt go. i think i joked with him and accused him of just wanting to see what a 500HP truck felt like.



so we went out and hit the highway. the guy commented about the truck's power but didnt even come close to building some boost with her. he pulled over and let me drive it back. HEE HEE HEE. i pulled out and had a nice gap fore and aft took it through second, shifted to third and then gagged it. of course the tires started spinning, boost hit about 50PSI, the truck fish tailed and lots of smoke (you know, the regular stuff )



we was dumb founded and a little scared i think I just commented that they seemed to spin OK and we returned to the shop.



we got back and he was telling them all about how they wouldnt believe it. we were running 50MPH and the thing just smoked the tires and left stripes on the road until i let off. I just laughed and said "well i think we got all those little nipples off there" and left while they were all still harrasing him.



DONT PUT COOPER DISCOVERERS ON THESE TRUCKS! they are not safe

 

[Eric Lee]

Todd - You covered the good, bad and the ugly -



I like alot about this set up - mostly the ability of running huge injectors while managing EGT's and smoke.



The anti is pretty high to sit at this table. I'm not sure with the construction industry just coming out of a pretty scary slump if I should be forking out the dough to do this right. Everytime I drag a bone to the bookkeeper - she asks for another.



And the ugly - horsepower is addictive. My truck is right where I wanted to be when I started building - I think around 1hp/1ci - 360. Yet I want more.



I absolutely love this truck.



- Eric

 

[Todd T]

yeah its cheap to build 350-400 HP but after that, get out your wallet. I've got 12 grand in this truck already and its not even done yet. I could be running 9's with a drag car for that. but i cant tow the toys to the dirt with a drag car and my wife and kids cant ride along either



ya gotta take baby steps and plan for the big picture. just like your trade, get the foundation and build on that. i had the twins sitting on a shelf for 5 months before i could scrape up the dough to get the rest of the stuff. i still spent 4k over what i had budgeted. but BOOOY am i happy with the results.

 

[justinp20012500]

yeah its cheap to build 350-400 HP but after that, get out your wallet. I've got 12 grand in this truck already and its not even done yet. I could be running 9's with a drag car for that. but i cant tow the toys to the dirt with a drag car and my wife and kids cant ride along either



ya gotta take baby steps and plan for the big picture. just like your trade, get the foundation and build on that. i had the twins sitting on a shelf for 5 months before i could scrape up the dough to get the rest of the stuff. i still spent 4k over what i had budgeted. but BOOOY am i happy with the results.

I have to agree with Todd.



I built my set of twins and after 4 months of pegging my 60 lbs boost gauge the head gasket let go.



Blown HG = huge under hood mess!!!



I went with a set of Haisley fire rings and studs. They are performing just like they should.



If you think you can install a set of twins and keep your foot out of it (ya right :-laf ) you can run a stock gasket up to 50 psi.



But from 45 to 50psi its just a crap shoot on how long it will last. You still have to bring your truck up to normal operating temp before making anything over 20 psi.



HG longevity also depends on fuel/timing and injected drugs.









Justin

 

[JCulp]

what is the best set up for twins can you use the stock hx35-and then add like the hx40 on top or how dose that work best . not to sound too dumb thanks

 

[Beast2B]

JCulp. you may have just opened a huge can of worms! There are many vendors of twin setups, all of them have different opinions and results. You can use your stock turbo as the top unit and add any number of larger turbos for the bottom turbo. It all depends on your use of the truck:

towing, drag racing, dyno king, sled pulling, rice rocket demolition, gasser truck smoking WHATEVER! (It was fun putting down 50hp more than a SRT-10 RAM!!)

 

[Eric Lee]

Thanks for the tips -



I didn't know the 20 psi max before warmed up rule - I usually take it easy till I'm warm but have hit the highway right out of the house also. I will add that to my 'do' list.



As far as the head work required for a twins upgrade -



45 to 50 psi - stock headgasket and no other mods - will be work for awhile but will blow eventually.



45 to 60 psi - stock headgasket and 12mm studs - OK reliability but still pressing luck with overboost runs.



45 to 80 psi? - stock headgasket and 14mm studs - Reliable but requires redrilling and tapping block.



50 to 75 psi - stock headgasket, O-ringed head and 12mm studs - reliable combination for up to 75 psi. (Add a valve job and mill the head for a top notch job)



50 to 80? psi - fire ring headgasket, fire ringed head? and 14mm studs -



Up to 90 psi? - O-ring both the head and block, 14mm studs, plastic Jesus on the dash board.



RE-TORQUE Whatever setup is used.



Does the 'fire ring' process require 'ringing' the head or just decking, head or block?



I think if I do this I would go with the -

50 to 75 psi - stock headgasket, O-ringed head and 12mm studs - reliable combination for up to 75 psi. (Add a valve job and mill the head for a top notch job)



O-ring - PDR = $300 + shipping

Headgasket = $150?

Studs = $400

Valve Job = ?

Head decking = ?



I might be able to swing this



-Eric

 

[Bandit1]

fire rings are larger mild steel rings crushed in between a groove in the head and block. for all head work head and block should be as true as possible.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

2 years ago I went off in this direction as my stock gasket had finally let go with 60 psi and water/meth, I went with a stage 2 head from Piers with a single O-Ring and 12mm's(65psi boost) difference was my O-Ring had and still has allot of protrusion, most people run 10-12 thou protrusion on a . 051 wire, mine was at 18 thou and still is (then at 80 psi boost) on the tear down 45K or so later the gasket was perfect and had one bad $ss bite on the . 020 fire ring(cummins gasket) I went back with the same setup on the new PDR motor except had Piers use 14mm's this time except a . 010 gasket, I figure it worked well before and should still do so, I figured I was on borrowed time with the old setup but never had an issue with it and now see why. With that much wire protrusion it's a little harder to get the head to seal up and you have to stay on top of it but in 2 years I only did a re-torque 6 times but did add allot of prayer... ... . food for thought.



Jim

 

[Eric Lee]

Jim - Great pics of the PDR twins in your gallery. Piers has done a pretty good job making this setup look like it could have come out of DC that way. How was the fit?

Has Piers designed bracketry to support the bottom turbo?



I appreciate your input here as by your sig you have sat at the big boy's table for awhile. You're also one of a few that I've seen to address the Intercooler as a means of denser charge.



Question - With standard protrusion (. 010 - . 012), How often will the head need to be re-torqued?



-Eric

 

[Eric Lee]

Question - With standard protrusion (. 010 - . 012), How often will the head need to be re-torqued?



Anybody?



-Eric