Heat Pump & AC Best Brand(s)

[rbattelle]

Looks like my heat pump has crapped out. Or, at least run out of refrigerant (not sure until I get it diagnosed next week).



Does anyone have any advice on replacement heat pump (air conditioner) brands to look at? I was thinking Trane, but only because their marketing materials suggest they're long-lasting.



Ryan

 

[PFlory]

As a 30 year veteran of residential HVAC and owner of my own business for the last 20 years I can tell you that you need to put more research into the installing contractor rather than the equipment. I have seen so many installations, especially in the attics done during the heat of a hot Georgia summer, where the systems were slapped in so poorly because the installer just wanted to git er dun and get out of the attic, that more return air was being drawn into the system from the attic from the poorly installed return ducts and plenums. So rather than recirculating the air from the home, you are pulling in and cooling 120*+ air from the hot attic.



I don't know if your system is in the basement or the attic, (ductwork tightness in the attic is much more of a concern) but generally if it is over 15-20 years old and has rigid metal ductwork, the duct leakage is so bad that you will only get a fraction of the actual efficiency the equipment is rated for. I usually suggest replacing the ductwork with seamless flexible duct with an R-8 insulation, and seal all the plenum takeoffs with mastic. Of course that said, if you have a shade tree installer doing the flexible duct, it too can be restrictive to air flow if it is not installed properly and full of crimps, kinks and crushed.



As far as equipment brand, I have sold American Standard (Same as Trane) for the past 12 years and will say it is probably one of the better built and reliable brands. They are also one of the most proud brands, which is reflected in the price of their equipment. They also charge a premium for there extended 10 year parts and labor warranty, ($495) which I almost always would roll into the installed price of the system. If you consider that you are locking into a no charge repair for ten years and hedging against inflation, it is not a bad idea considering that in 10 years an HVAC system has an equivalent of 500,000 miles on it, kinda like a good CTD.



With the tanking of the economy I did pick up another brand about 3 years ago, which I would never have even thought about selling 7-8 years ago because of how poorly built, and short the life cycle of the equipment was. The brand is Goodman, and I know that all the name brand Trane, Lennox, Carrier (which is over engineered crap), dealers would call me crazy. But about 6 years ago, Goodman and Amana merged, and completely retooled all of their equipment. I have installed everything from the builders line, up to the 2-stage 16 and 18 SEER (eligible for the Obama tax credit of $1,500) and have not had any problems with any of them. They are much more simple than the Carrier, Trane systems and easier to troubleshoot and diagnose if ever there is a problem. Along with that, they have some models that have a lifetime UNIT replacement to the original purchaser if the compressor ever fails, you get an entire new unit, and right now are running a $49 10 year parts and labor special on the installed system.



And considering that you said your system is a heat pump, in addition to the cooling efficiency (SEER-seasonal energy efficiency ratio) the Goodman/Amana heat pump systems have a higher heating output (HSPF-heating season performance factor) than most all of the American Standard/Trane systems.



So to wind up my long winded answer, FIRST find a quality contractor who can determine weather the ductwork infrastructure is adequate or needs to be upgraded along with the equipment, and then look closely at the SEER and HSPF ratings of the equipment you are considering. Higher SEER/HSPF mean lower utility, and strongly consider adding a 10 year parts and labor warranty on the installed system.



Just my $0. 02 + some worth.

 

[rbattelle]

Peter,

Brilliant! I was hoping a residential HVAC expert would chime in here. Great advice.

My main furnace is in the basement, and I have an auxiliary unit in the attic for the 2nd floor. The attic unit is identical to the basement, but without any refrigerant lines running to it. The two units are in series, with the basement unit plumbed to the inlet on the attic unit.

My ductwork is a mixture of flexible insulated piping and rigid metal. I don't really know how badly it leaks, but the flow of air from my vents is pathetic.

Do you have advice on separating the wheat from the chaff when interviewing contractors for the work?

Ryan

 

[PFlory]

Although I'm not real clear on how these units were installed and tied together as it sounds a little strange compared to how things are done down here. But, I am a member of CAAG (Conditioned Air Association of Georgia) which is a group of contractors that come together to help keep the industry respectable. We try to keep the unlicensed contractors and trunk slammers out of the business by keeping active in the Legislation processes and preventing unlicensed people from buying equipment, parts and materials.



You might check with the local Chamber of Commerce, or see if there are any similar contractor groups in your area that can give you a list of their members.



With that said, there are wide variances in prices, and usually going with a low bid contractor will usually give you low bid results. I commonly come up against bids that can be $1,500 less than mine, only to later get a phone call from a homeowner who then has problems and can't get the installing contractor back out. Given your issues with air flow, going with a variable speed indoor blower section can overcome some poor ductwork designs, because rather than having a typical blower motor only coming up to a certain RPM, and not being able to overcome the high static pressures of the duct system, a variable speed motor will achieve a certain CFM, and will speed up its RPM to overcome the high static pressures of a poor duct system. It wont solve miracles but it does help with mild duct problems, not to mention it pulls a fraction of the power a conventional motor does.



Finally, if you know of anyone who has had a replacement done, find out if they were satisfied with the job, did the contractor clean up and follow up if there were any issues, and if possible, go look at the job. Does it look neat and tidy. Sometimes just the look of the job can tell you how detail orientated the contractor was.



Good luck, and if you get quote's with wide discrepancies or things you might question, let me know and maybe I can help you weed through the field. Here are some sites for the Am. Standard product, and the Amana Everrest product. (With the lifetime unit replacement warranty)



Air Conditioners, Furnaces, American Standard Heating and Air Conditioning, Humidifiers - Heat Pumps - Heating and Cooling

EverRest Extreme Comfort - Home

 

[Buffalo]

What a great resource you/we have in PFlory. Thank you!!! With that in mind, I hope he will correct my comments, if needed, as I am NOT an HVAC expert.



I live in Phoenix, AZ. where it's HOT in the summer & cool in the winter. If I'm not mistaken, RBattelle, you live in OH. (much colder in the winter months). I've been here since 1976 & have always been told that heat pumps work well in our climate. They can warm up a home if the weather is not extremely cold but, don't work very well when it is COLD. In the past, I have noticed that my unit did not seem to be as effective when it did get really cold, here. They never really pumped out really hot air like a gas furnace would. The new heat pumps may be different, today. PFlory would probably be able to answer that question with much more authority, than me.



I just replaced my heat pump with a Trane 14 SEER (actually, 14. 25 SEER--12. 00 EER, 3. 5 ton unit). For the last 15+ years, I had an American Standard 10 SEER unit on the roof of the house. It worked well but, at the last annual service, the tech showed me a few things that needed repair or replacement. I figured it was nearing the end of its life cycle.



There were a lot of adds in the paper regarding new units & all the discount/rebates that were available. So, I looked into it. There is/was a $1,500. 00 tax credit on your Fed. taxes (which, I got), $200. 00 from Trane & $425. 00 from the local elec. utility (AZ. Public Service, known as APS). I got all of these rebates. The installation included a new plenum that connects the unit to the ductwork. The old plenum was about 1/2 the size of the new one, which, is supposed to be much less restrictive. It made sense (kind of like the new intake & exhaust manifolds for our Cummins engines breathe better). A new return register (less restrictive), programmable thermostat & 12 years parts & labor (on the compressor, also,) were included. The unit cost $6,646. 00, less $2125. 00 in rebates for a total expense of $4,521. 00 (out of pocket).



If the Fed. tax rebate is still in effect, make sure that you have enough of a tax liability at the end of the year or you will not be able to take advantage of the rebate. There is a tax professional in the office next to where I work (they did my taxes, this year) & the lady came over & told me that she just did taxes for a person that did not have any tax liability & lost the rebate. A little tax planning should take care of that problem.



On the down side, recently, I spoke with a couple of HVAC techs & they said that none of the new units are very good, as compared with older units, from a quality standpoint. Both guys agreed. They said that you are better off fixing your old unit. That is a question that PFlory could answer!!! Hope he does as I would like another opinion. Didn't make me feel too good about my new purchase as I like things that are durable.



During my heatpump research, I was told that the upper end (SEER) heat pumps (dual-stage pumps, etc. ) work fine when they are working but, are quite sensative & not very durable. The unit I bought is a simpler version with less to go wrong, as I was told. That's another question for PFlory???



My new Trane unit works quite well, so far. Definately moves more air & the house seems to be more comfortable. I think it's more economical but, the elec. rates have gone up, here. So, it's kind of hard to tell, for sure.



Hope this helps.



Joe F.

 

[PFlory]

What a great resource you/we have in PFlory. Thank you!!! With that in mind, I hope he will correct my comments, if needed, as I am NOT an HVAC expert.

Being that ex is a has been, and spurt is a drip under pressure I guess I fit that bill.



The heat pumps of the past, say 12-15 years and older usually did not provide as warm discharge temperature as the current models. The systems today, using the R-410A refrigerant, actually transfer more heat per pound of refrigerant than the old R-22 systems. Current heat pumps with the variable speed indoor blower have sort of an infinite number of blower speeds. Rather than a conventional blower motor either being on or off, the variable speed blowers usually can be programmed to provide a slow 8-10 minute ramp up in speed. By doing so, when the compressor starts up, the indoor coil has a chance to warm up much quicker with the lower air flow over it, providing discharge air temperatures closer to that of todays high efficiency furnaces. (You can't compare them to the old 70% furnaces of the 80's which often had discharge temps. of 120*-130*) Likewise in the cooling mode you get better dehumidification by the same means that the coil gets much colder at start up with the lower air flow, causing the condensation to start dripping off the coil in the first few minutes of operation, where the conventional system takes about 15 minutes to get everything at full capacity.



If you go with a two stage heat pump in the 16-20 SEER rating, depending on manufacturer they run on 50%-70% first stage capacity, usually about 70% of the time in my area. When you consider that these are sized for the design temp. of 92* in my area, any time the outdoor temperature is below the design, you are actually oversized during those temperatures, causing shorter run cycles. By running a 2-stage system at less capacity on the mild days, you get longer run time, and according to American Standard on their units, are claiming 40% more moisture removal with the two stage.



I would probably disagree with the techs claiming reliability. I have many of these high end systems installed by both the Am. Standard, and Amana Everrest, and have not had any higher number of problems with them. As a matter of fact, it seems that most of my customer complaints come from the homeowners that install the low end systems. The key is having a tech who has factory training on the brands they sell and is not intimidated by a unit that may have more control wiring in it than the old school systems. Most systems now have integrated control boards that monitor any faults, and have an led flash code which would direct you to the problem.



Given that the older units indoor and outdoor coils were made of a copper tube/aluminum fin design, and that the two dissimilar metals expand and contract at different rates, over time there is less contact between the tube and plate, greatly reducing the efficiency and capacity of the equipment. Not to mention that years of grass clippings, rain splashed mud etc. building up in the plates even further reducing the air flow and heat transfer through the coils. So even if you were to say replace the compressor in an older system, it is not going to perform like it did when new. American Standard/Trane however has used an all aluminum "spine fin" coil which is not as susceptible to the different rate of expansion. That said, I don't agree with the old unit's being more durable. Both the Trane and Amana have some of the lowest compressor failure rates in the industry.



Finally, I just would recommend going with a major player brand. There are many small brands that are only carrying 3-5% of the market, and given the economy right now they will probably start going through the merger game. They wont be able to maintain distributorship with that small % market share and will either disappear or be bought up by other companies. Carrier (not my favorite) actually sells under many different brand names (Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Day & Night and others) they bought out to try to gain market share, but still hovered around the same as before they picked up the other brands. I believe they have about 24% of the market, Amana/Goodman has about 23%, Trane 13% and all the others fall below that.

 

[rbattelle]

Peter, this is great information.

Is it reasonable to ask a potential contractor on what brands he's had factory training?

Ryan

 

[PFlory]

I would think that any reputable contractor would be fourth coming in telling you what training they have. There are however some companies in my area that promote 3,4 or 5 brands, and although I do service all makes and models, they all do things slightly different with their logic in the controls. I can say that I am better versed in troubleshooting the two brands that I get more in depth training on, whereas a contractor with a whole line of brands may not be as versed in all of them.

 

[jakprince]

Have you ever had any dealings with one of the geothermal ones?

 

[PFlory]

With the advent of air source systems now reaching nearly the same efficiency as geothermal, and with the up front cost of geothermal being so much more, and intrusive to install, I don't think there is as much of a payback on geothermal vs 18-20 SEER air source systems. In my 30 years in the industry in GA I've only come across one client with geothermal.

 

[AClayton]

I would comment on this thread as I have 25yrs of experience to back myself and will decline doing so because... ... Peter just mirrored my exact thoughts and answered the above questions exactly as I would have. I only sell Carrier equipment to those customers shopping price. You get what you pay for and customers interested in getting the best equipment will certainly spring for the extra cash required to purchase Trane. Peter's advice regarding ductwork,whether return or supply,is simply spot on. I am more concerned with returns than even supply ducting!!! There is a lot of demand in my area for expert installations and customers willing to pay premium prices to achieve their goals of efficiency. I do not and will not skimp on ductwork... ... . if they shop price,I will sell the carrier brands.



Geothermal is getting more and more publicity in the DC metro area... ..... very expensive and much harder to get your money back. On top of that..... in an emergency,not many mechanics can be dispatched and be able to properly diagnose a geothermal system. Let's face it... ... it is becoming harder and harder to find skilled mechanics in any Trade and the HVAC field is no different. About 80% of our service calls are easily diagnosed and young and/or inexperienced techs can handle the job. More difficult service calls require a skilled tech which many companies do not have or have in very limited numbers. My point is to carefully select a Contractor with a competent staff and thorough installation techniques and do not shop price. Be a smart homeowner and compare apple to apple,pay a fair price and consider the best equipment available today and purchase it and have it installed proffesionally. The best equipment can be ruined by improper installation.....



Last but not least... ... I am not familiar at all with your explanation of how your present system is installed. I have been to several schools and am constantly updated by Trade magazines and literature and have no idea what kind of system you presently have.



Alan

 

[PFlory]

I am not familiar at all with your explanation of how your present system is installed. I have been to several schools and am constantly updated by Trade magazines and literature and have no idea what kind of system you presently have.



Alan

That one left me a little befuddled too!

 

[FOXY005]

WOW

I guess I got lucky and came upon this thread.

I had been thinking about heat pump units lately



I have guestion to ask since we have some great sources here, I currently have a air conditioner only unit with the unit outside and an airbox plus the unit in the attic. Flrxible insulated hoses connect the airbox to ceiling vents.



I was wondering how much of this would have to be redone if I was to convert over to a combo heat pump / air conditioner unit. I am wondering cause I heat with coal and when I am away from home for more than a day it's a little tough on the wife to handle the stove, therefore thinking of updating to the combo unit. She could let the fire go out and just turn the thermostat.



Thanks in advance for any replies

 

[PFlory]

It would really depend on the age of the existing system, and then on what the heat and cool load calculation on the house came up with. The new code in GA for systems in the attic is to have flexible duct with an R-8 insulation. Systems here that were installed 12-15 years ago only had an R-4. 6 insulation, and given the climate in PA you would probably want to have the higher rated insulation on the ductwork on an attic installation. Then the supply plenum (air out)and return plenums (air in) would more than likely need to be replaced as all the different manufactures use different flange sizes on their air handlers, and its easier to just install a plenum made to fit that manufacturers unit. As AClayton said, the duct system is probably more important than the equipment, as even the best equipment wont work well with improper infrastructure.



There is also the shortfalls of heat pumps below the 30* or so where the capacity of heat output falls off. Heat pump air handlers also have supplemental heat strips that come into play when the outdoor temperatures fall below the balance point of the structure (determined by the load calculation). You would need to make sure that an adequate sized auxiliary heater is installed, and bear in mind that when heating with the pump alone, it's a pretty efficient way to heat. If you have a majority of days when you heat below the balance point, the supplemental heaters can be taxing on the utility. I install some heat pumps that are dual fuel, being that the heat pump does all the 30* and above heating, and on the colder days you have a gas furnace instead of the electric air handler to take over on the colder says.



The dual fuel is more expensive to install and would obviously require either natural gas or LP as an alternate source of fuel.



Then there is also the refrigerant lineset which carries the refrigerant between the indoor and outdoor systems. You may need a different size for the new equipment, and even if the size is correct, because the new systems use a different type of refrigerant (R-410A) which uses a different type of oil, not compatible with the oil that recirculates in the R-22 systems, you cant leave any old oil in the line when you change the systems over. I have had some situations where lineset replacement was not possible to the attic, and the homeowner didn't want to have a new line run down the exterior of his home, so you can "flush" the lineset and use the old one, but I try not to if at all possible. If there are long horizontal runs of the lineset there is no way to be sure that a pool of oil stuck in a dip in the lineset won't be drawn into the new system, resulting in a green slime, that will destroy the new compressor prematurely. #@$%!



So... short answer, budget really plays the major role. If the cost of a higher SEER/HSPF is out of reach, you would probably have a better working system to address the duct work, lineset issues as more important, and buy a lesser SEER system that fits the budget.



That's the advice from this drip under pressure!:-laf

 

[FOXY005]

OK Thanks

I kind of thought it would be a complete Remove & Replace to change over.

I will have to have a couple of local HVAC guys come out and look it over and give me a $$ figure.

 

[rbattelle]

Last but not least... ... I am not familiar at all with your explanation of how your present system is installed. I have been to several schools and am constantly updated by Trade magazines and literature and have no idea what kind of system you presently have.

Sorry about that. I have a 2-zone system. There are two identical furnaces: one in the basement and one in the attic. There is a second thermostat that controls the 2nd floor zone.



The furnace in the basement has the refrigerant lines running to it from the outside compressor (the heat exchanger is functional).



One of the outlet ducts from the basement unit is plumbed all the way up to the inlet plenum for the attic unit. The outlet ducting for the attic furnace is plumbed only to the 2nd floor.



The attic unit, which only runs if the 2nd floor thermostat requires it AND the basement unit is running, is a dumb box. It's heat exchanger has no refrigerant lines plumbed into it, and in winter it relies on the 240v resistance heaters if it needs to add heat upstairs.



Does that explain it? Or did I make it worse? It's a strange arrangement, I agree. It's what the original builder did.



Ryan

 

[rbattelle]

As far as equipment brand, I have sold American Standard (Same as Trane) for the past 12 years and will say it is probably one of the better built and reliable brands. They are also one of the most proud brands, which is reflected in the price of their equipment. They also charge a premium for there extended 10 year parts and labor warranty, ($495) which I almost always would roll into the installed price of the system. If you consider that you are locking into a no charge repair for ten years and hedging against inflation, it is not a bad idea considering that in 10 years an HVAC system has an equivalent of 500,000 miles on it, kinda like a good CTD.

With the tanking of the economy I did pick up another brand about 3 years ago, which I would never have even thought about selling 7-8 years ago because of how poorly built, and short the life cycle of the equipment was. The brand is Goodman, and I know that all the name brand Trane, Lennox, Carrier (which is over engineered crap), dealers would call me crazy.

I finally got a guy out here on Friday. He looked everything over, and found where my condenser had sprung a leak and purged itself of all the refrigerant.

He checked out my pseudo 2-zone system, and confirmed that it is WEIRD to say the least. Said he had never seen anything like it. In his mind, it looked like they had decided to put in a dual zone system (2 heat pumps), then midway through the project they changed their mind (ran out of money?) and just sort of left it the way it was - all plumbed in place but essentially just running as a big blower.

He commented that the electrical work was good, but the ductwork was AWFUL. I agree with that assessment.

So he priced me out to repair (replace) my condenser - $3k. I don't think this is a good idea.

He also priced out a complete re-do, including ductwork modifications, a single 3. 5 ton Trane heat pump, new furnace with variable speed blower, 10-year warranty, and a simple single-zone system with a second thermostat on the 2nd floor. Total price - are you sitting down? - $9k.

In order to exercise due diligence, I'll be calling someone else in next week to offer a second opinion and second estimate.

Now, what I thought was interesting was that he priced out a Trane system. When I asked, "why Trane?" he responded that Trane is the best and that's what he would put in his home. I thought this was particularly interesting in light of Peter's comments about Goodman. The company this guy represented is a Goodman dealer. Did he quote me Trane because that's where the biggest profit margin is, and that's what a lot of people know now? Or did he quote Trane because it's the best?

Peter, are you saying that American Standard and Trane are actually the same company? I'm not willing to pay a premium for the Trane name if American Standard is the same stuff but cheaper.

One thing that sort of annoyed me about the "quote" is it wasn't itemized. It didn't break out the cost of each part of the job - duct work, heat pump, furnace, 10-year warranty, etc. It simply had a bottom-line price and that was it. Shouldn't a proper quote have a breakdown of what each element costs?

Ryan

 

[rbattelle]

He also priced out a complete re-do, including ductwork modifications, a single 3. 5 ton Trane heat pump, new furnace with variable speed blower, 10-year warranty, and a simple single-zone system with a second thermostat on the 2nd floor. Total price - are you sitting down? - $9k.

Another day, another estimate. Local monster HVAC company just left. These guys are HUGE - 47 installation crews; Trane dealer; Home Depot offical installer.

Total price, for similar services as the other guys? $6400. Somewhat difficult to determine how similar the two quotes are. One was for a 3-ton system; the more expensive quote was a 3. 5 ton system. But both were Trane.

There's a good chance these guys will get my business.

Ryan

 

[BDaugherty]

Air Conditioners, (A/C), Packaged Heat Pumps and Central Air Conditioning (AC) Units for Home Healing and Cooling Systems. Residential and Commercial Heating and Cooling Equipment by Goodman Manufacturing available in 14 SEER and 13 SEER ratings for



These guys are building some pretty good quality units out in Texas.